looking for advice on pellet boiler install

[steelman]

hello all,
long time lurker, first time poster.
have read for many hours on this very informative site and im sure my questions have been answered many times in the past but would like to contribute to any other lurkers out there.

i live in a remote are with Propane fuel. bought the house 13 months ago and new from the start i would be changing the heating system this year. well with 2 teenage daughters at home thing are a little behind.
looking at Pellet boilers. have studied the outside ones and although they have there niche im not liking the $10,000+ price tag. so now im looking at the indoor boilers. i have forced air now and have no plans of converting to hydronic heat. ill keep the forced air and the propane as back up.
oh and i will add that i wan tto use it to help heat my water. remember i have to teenagers here! hence the interest in the boiler. i was looking at the PF100 but started seeing the real world savings in the electric hot water arena by using the .to preheat the water.
the brands im thinking of are the PB105, Pennical, Ecoboiler and the Hydroflex 60. the one that has my attention is the hydroflex.
at 60,000btu per hr. is this unit large enough to heat my home entirely? normally it gets plenty cold here in Ohio. 0 deg are not uncommon. and routinely gets in the negative numbers. my home is a 1700 sqft ranch that is poorly insulated. the previous owner had good records on the propane usage and they used 2.5 to 3 tanks at 400 gal each. in today's dollars that is right at $ 1600 to $2400 each winter. so there is my heat lost calculator! i need a boiler.

i have looked for any and all info on the Hydroflex but there is not a lot out there. looks like it has only been on the market about 4 to 5 years.
so will this unit be large enough to use as the primary heating? can i install it myself and keep the warranty? is it considered a good unit? i have looked at the PB105 but it may be to large for my home. if the Hydroflex will do it why pay the extra $ for the PB105?

i have only now been looking into the ecoboiler. it looks to be a nice unit just not a lot of user-opinions out on the net.

looking fwd to any and all info from the experienced pellet users out there.

some day ill be able to add some useful information to the Hearth, but for now i could use yours.

thank you.

jim

 

[Como]

I would suggest you also look on the Pellet section of the site, there are some Pellet Furnaces that might be a cheaper and easier install and then just use Propane for Hot Water.

A couple of questions:

How much do you pay for energy, per gallon for propane, per ton for pellets and per KW for electricity?

And welcome!

 

[velvetfoot]

I've been thinking of the Hydroflex 60 as well. There are at least two people on the forums with that unit and VT_Bubba has been very helpful to me.

 

[steelman]

thank you for the reply.
we are paying $2.70 per gal for propane, premium pellets right at $2.30 / ton and we have a CoOp for our electric. not sure per KW need to check the bill. little more than average because of the CoOp.

no matter how i look at the savings the best we can do is about match the cost of natural gas.

with a savings of 45% from last year (and using the previous owners records of the amount of propane used over 5 years) we are looking at a $1250 to $1500 per year savings. not counting any savings on Elect. for DHW if we can keep the total investment around $8,000 we should see a pay back point of 5 to 7 years

1. pellet boiler, $5500
2. heat exchanger, duct work etc. 1,500
3 installation help, piping, electrical $1,000

cost is an issue. that is why im looking at the hydroflex60 its smaller, but so is my home. near the cost of a.pf100 and it will help with the water.

i was set on a Maximum outdoor at first to try and off set any insurance hikes, and to help heat my pole barn. talked to 3 people that had the Max 250 and was surprised at the amount of pellets used. and the cost approaching $15,000 total.
then i liked the PF100 but the unit is nearly twice the BTU i think i will use. seems the hotter the furnace/boiler runs the more efficient they are. so why not use one that is better sized to.the load? the hydroflex60 comes to mind as well as the ecoboiler and the Pinnical.

i even thought about buying used, there are a few lesser named units on craigs list around $2,000. but im getting older and i dont want to have the problems of a damaged, older abused etc unit.
so im at the same spot i was a year ago. burning wood. this is the last year i use cord wood for my primary heat source. too much work. not enough desire and not enough time or not enough time that i want to spend with that. would rather spend time in the garage or fishing.

ok, im ranting.

anyone dis-like the hydroflex60? ecoboiler? Pinnical?

thank you.

 

[Como]

http://www.fahrenheittech.com/endurance_corn_stove.html

I was thinking this sort of thing.

 

[timberr]

Steelman,

You mention you have a 1700 sq.ft poorly insulated house. The first thing you should is get your house insulated and weather tight, this will be your biggest bang for the buck. If you don't you are going to be wasting pellets instead of propane. Then you can make the decision do I want to stop burning dead dinosaurs and start burning dead wood fiber.

Keep dreaming!

 

[steelman]

http://www.fahrenheittech.com/endurance_corn_stove.html

I was thinking this sort of thing.

i have read some good things about the Fer.50. there is a dealer close and i plan on giving him a chance to sell me on it.

jim

 

[steelman]

[quote author="timberr" date="1328816822"]Steelman,

You mention you have a 1700 sq.ft poorly insulated house. The first thing you should is get your house insulated and weather tight, this will be your biggest bang for the buck. If you don't you are going to be wasting pellets instead of propane. Then you can make the decision do I want to stop burning dead dinosaurs and start burning dead wood fiber.

Keep dreaming!

and i have. i added 14 inches to the attic. but the house is built from 2x4's i reline that this is the industry standard that home R ratings are measured to but i consider this poor. r-13 with 1/2 ply-wood and vinyl is a poor insulation. i would like to have a brick with 2x6 and plast-sta-rap and be able to say its "well insulated"

so i guess that it is a tight home, no leaks and good windows etc.. but still be a poorly insulated home.

jim

 

[steelman]

bump, looking for any info on the hydroflex60. still my top choice but sure would like to read from others that have one before shelling out the $5100.00 plus for the unit.
any shops have one i can look at?

jim

 

[steelman]

http://www.fahrenheittech.com/endurance_corn_stove.html

I was thinking this sort of thing.

como,
went to the store today, nice looking unit and the cost is attractive over other furnaces. at $3800 its appealing. still thinking Hydroflex60. would like to see one up close.

thanks for the info will use it im sure.

jim

 

[Delta-T]

i have sold, and support a bunch of PB105s and a handful of Hydroflex60s...I like the PB much better. Its less picky, easier to clean (by far), and can go for a lot longer before you have to shut it down. It may be a few points less efficient, but it can burn as low as the hydroflex (lbs per hour) but has a much higher top end. If your plan it to do heat and domestic water...the hydroflex might come up a bit short if you're near that 2000 sq ft area and making enough hot water for 3 peeps to shower. I know its more money, but if you account for cleaning, and parts replacement (baffles, bricks, spiral heat exchangers that WILL wear out) the hydroflex might have a high enough cost of ownership to make the PB more attractive in the long run.

* I am not trying to sell you something *
its easy to look at the specs and numbers, but dealing with the units once they are in yur house is a whole different can-o-worms.

 

[700renegade]

Regarding your first thought on a Maxim outdoor pellet boiler - you should be able to buy them slightly used all day long for $4000 to $5000. I know you can in my part of the country since corn went up to $7. If someone offered me $5k for mine it would be gone that day. Great unit, but the economics just aren't there like when corn was $2.50. I can still run wood pellets at $180/T pretty reasonable ( compared to LP at $2.25 or off-peak electric at $0.05 ).

Also kep in mind if you still have a fully finctional forced air furnace, it can backup the boiler on those very few bitter cold days per year. In reality most of the heating season is "shoulder season". Undershooting a bit on boiler BTU shouldn't be that big a deal.

 

[Como]

Ton of Pellets is 16m btus, $11.50 per million at your price.

So that would be equivalent to LP at $1 ish

Plus or minus efficiencies.

 

[velvetfoot]

Delta-T, are you saying because of its design, the PB105 has less parts to replace (baffles, bricks, spiral heat exchangers ) when they wear out?
Has Harman fixed the burnpot issue (bubbling) that I've read about on the PB105?
Also, Harman apparently now delivers the Hydroflex60 with the middle spiral heat exchanger tubes missing (I've read becasue of excessive heat under certain conditions).
Supposedly this causes a 4% reduction in efficiency, again maybe tipping in favor of the PB105.
The Hydroflex60 is a newer model, while the PB105 has been around for a while.

 

[velvetfoot]

Speaking of links, this spreadsheet from EIA, which I found linked here as well a few months back, is great. It also references hearth.com!
www.eia.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

(edit: HOLY COW! My numbers for are 43.96/per mbtu for resistance electric, 34.18 for oil, 10.49 for wood, and 23.62 for pellet, with coal at 10.67. Heat pump, geo or air (even with north climate) could look good, if you have existing ductwork or one story house. Anyway, I digress. The spreadsheet really brings energy costs into focus, for me.)

 

[Como]

Mine is

$34 Electricity

$24 Propane

$15 Pellet

$3 Wood

At its peak price Propane and Electricity would be the same.

 

[Delta-T]

Delta-T, are you saying because of its design, the PB105 has less parts to replace (baffles, bricks, spiral heat exchangers ) when they wear out?
Has Harman fixed the burnpot issue (bubbling) that I've read about on the PB105?
Also, Harman apparently now delivers the Hydroflex60 with the middle spiral heat exchanger tubes missing (I've read becasue of excessive heat under certain conditions).
Supposedly this causes a 4% reduction in efficiency, again maybe tipping in favor of the PB105.
The Hydroflex60 is a newer model, while the PB105 has been around for a while.

Yes, less fatigeable parts. So far as I can tell they have fixed the burnpot problem. I have seen the spirals deteriate in just a short amount of time under "hard" use, which is why I say if you are approaching the 2000 sq ft mark to really consider the PB over the HF60. The HF60 is just so much more "hands on" than the PB, that I think from an owners perspective, you're likely to have a better experience. The HF60 is a nice unit, but you have to really want a new hobby to own it, IMO.

 

[velvetfoot]

Thanks for the good info.

 

[katman]

Definately look at the PB 105, Steelman. I'm almost done with the install so pics and details will come soon. Got the contols set up, lines filled and did a test burn. Found I had undersized the circulator pushing hot water from the Harman to the house, where it ties into my oil boiler. Hope to borrow another pump and test again by this weekend. The PB 105 is simplicity and seems to work quite well.

 

[wil lanfear]

Delta-T, are you saying because of its design, the PB105 has less parts to replace (baffles, bricks, spiral heat exchangers ) when they wear out?
Has Harman fixed the burnpot issue (bubbling) that I've read about on the PB105?
Also, Harman apparently now delivers the Hydroflex60 with the middle spiral heat exchanger tubes missing (I've read becasue of excessive heat under certain conditions).
Supposedly this causes a 4% reduction in efficiency, again maybe tipping in favor of the PB105.
The Hydroflex60 is a newer model, while the PB105 has been around for a while.

Yes, less fatigeable parts. So far as I can tell they have fixed the burnpot problem. I have seen the spirals deteriate in just a short amount of time under "hard" use, which is why I say if you are approaching the 2000 sq ft mark to really consider the PB over the HF60. The HF60 is just so much more "hands on" than the PB, that I think from an owners perspective, you're likely to have a better experience. The HF60 is a nice unit, but you have to really want a new hobby to own it, IMO.

IMO, I believe the jury is still out on the burnpot bubble issue. I believe I have the newest design burnpot installed in my boiler, been installed a couple months now without an issue but...... I do have concerns with the metal used to manufacture these burnpots. It seems to me if the material used doesn't have a heat resistant value higher than the temps produced in the combustion area, the burnpot metal is going to deteriate creating cracks over a period of time. The new burnpot design can only be used with the pressure ignition, it couldn't be used with the finned ignition, if you have the finned ignition I'm thinking that you may be SOL. Post # 13


https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/84645/P0/

 

[steelman]

thank you to all that have responded.

the PB105 is just too costly for now. i realize its a nice unit and would love to have one. just not now. after adding in all the extra costs im looking at $10,000.

so i have settled on a forced air unit. probably the PF100, St Croix Revolution or the Fahrenheit Endurance. the PF100 if a nice unit but i feel may be a little large for my needs. just by what i have seen in the owners manuals of the Endurance and the Rev the Rev. looks to be a simpler design. the rotating drum seems to have fewer parts and seems to be a little less involved than the Endurance to maintain. any opinions on ether? always looking for good info. the only problem is i cant seem to find a dealer close to me. i have been quoted price of $3540 on the Rev and $3800 on the Endurance. are those good prices or should i keep looking?

again thank you too all for the info. and rest assured i will be asking many Q's about the install.

jim