Man am I startin to like the KING!

[BrotherBart]

Not exactly. The cat lowers the ignition temp of the smoke to 500ish degrees so you don't have to run the stove as hard as you would on a non-cat stove to make enough heat for their secondaries to burn. Also, once you get the cat lit-off, it will feed itself on smoke and you can turn the damper down and let it run on auto pilot.

Nope. The light off temp for the cat is around five hundred but once that smokes starts burning in it it ain't gonna stay at 500 for long.

From our friends at Blaze King:

"Full catalytic operation occurs at catalytic combustor temperatures above 700F (371C). Combustor glowing only occurs at temperatures above 1000F (538C). "

ETA: " Combustor temperatures between 1400F and 1600F (760C - 870C) are common, but operating temperatures between 700F and 1400F (371C - 760C) are recommended."

 

[leeave96]

Not exactly. The cat lowers the ignition temp of the smoke to 500ish degrees so you don't have to run the stove as hard as you would on a non-cat stove to make enough heat for their secondaries to burn. Also, once you get the cat lit-off, it will feed itself on smoke and you can turn the damper down and let it run on auto pilot.

Nope. The light off temp for the cat is around five hundred but once that smokes starts burning in it it ain't gonna stay at 500 for long.

From our friends at Blaze King:

"Full catalytic operation occurs at catalytic combustor temperatures above 700F (371C). Combustor glowing only occurs at temperatures above 1000F (538C). "

ETA: " Combustor temperatures between 1400F and 1600F (760C - 870C) are common, but operating temperatures between 700F and 1400F (371C - 760C) are recommended."

I think Todd's point was you need a 500 or 600 degree firebox temp to have a clean burn which dovetails with my point. The cat lowers ignition temps vs a non-cat stove and therefore you have to burn less wood to acheive a clean burn - at lower temps. I imagine that if you had good damper control, you could maintain that 500-600ish degree smoke burn too.

Bill

 

[Todd]

Not exactly. The cat lowers the ignition temp of the smoke to 500ish degrees so you don't have to run the stove as hard as you would on a non-cat stove to make enough heat for their secondaries to burn. Also, once you get the cat lit-off, it will feed itself on smoke and you can turn the damper down and let it run on auto pilot.

Nope. The light off temp for the cat is around five hundred but once that smokes starts burning in it it ain't gonna stay at 500 for long.

From our friends at Blaze King:

"Full catalytic operation occurs at catalytic combustor temperatures above 700F (371C). Combustor glowing only occurs at temperatures above 1000F (538C). "

ETA: " Combustor temperatures between 1400F and 1600F (760C - 870C) are common, but operating temperatures between 700F and 1400F (371C - 760C) are recommended."

Yeah, but it takes less air to get that cat up to that temp and maintain. Non cats have a wide open secondary air hole that you have no control over so they suck in as much air as they can, cat stoves don't so they burn longer. If you cut off all the secondary air on a non cat you would get the same long burns as a cat but it would be dirty and less efficient.

 

[oldspark]

Shutting off the secondary air after the gases stage is over was preached by a member a year or so ago, I think it has a good chance to add burn times but no more btu's, next summer when I take the stove apart I might add a control for the baffle.

 

[Hiram Maxim]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the informative responses.
Always looking to know and learn more.
I must admit, I am curious about cat stoves, esp the King. But alot of it was the hype when I bought the Summit.
I love the Summit, but would love to have both burning in the house to get some real side by side comparisons.
And still have an Englander 30 to hook up.
Great answers and knowledge, thanks to all that responded.

You will not be dissapointed with the 30 - especially if you like heat and a lot of it when required.

Hope you get your 30 installed sooner than later!

+1

Different strokes for different folks.

I got a 30 for my Dad. Should heat his place really well when he needs it.

Bill

 

[BrotherBart]

If you cut off all the secondary air on a non cat you would get the same long burns as a cat but it would be dirty and less efficient.

Unless you reduce the size of that hole by the percentage that your chimney is taller than the 15 foot chimney the stove was designed for.

 

[iceman]

We need some type of test
Usable heat times with stove top temps.. with wood species...
For example in my house I know at less than 400 my back rooms will start cooling at night.
During the day (sun shine) my stove will be at 300 ish at 430 pm which I know my back rooms will be going down a couple of degrees
So I put enough in to get temp up but be down by 830 so I can load up for the night
So BK people, what I would like to know is with your stoves are you keeping 4-500+ temps for say 16-20hrs on a full load?
Or is your stove able to keep say a constant 300 temp for 24 hrs or more?
I hope you understand what I am asking and I know everyones situation/house is different.. but just trying to get a real common denominator between the cat and non cat

 

[rdust]

We need some type of test
Usable heat times with stove top temps.. with wood species...
For example in my house I know at less than 400 my back rooms will start cooling at night.
During the day (sun shine) my stove will be at 300 ish at 430 pm which I know my back rooms will be going down a couple of degrees
So I put enough in to get temp up but be down by 830 so I can load up for the night
So BK people, what I would like to know is with your stoves are you keeping 4-500+ temps for say 16-20hrs on a full load?
Or is your stove able to keep say a constant 300 temp for 24 hrs or more?
I hope you understand what I am asking and I know everyones situation/house is different.. but just trying to get a real common denominator between the cat and non cat

I really wanted to know this before I bought mine but couldn't find the answers anywhere. My wife loaded mine at 7am this morning, she doesn't load it full like I do, she just tosses in whatever splits I have near the stove. It was in the teens/low 20's this morning so I ran it hot for a while, I have it dialed down now to 1.5 but the thermostat flapper closed just south of 2 so it's on a low burn right now with a 340* stove top.(it's 33* right now according to accuweather) It's 71 in the hallway leading to the family room(hallway thermostat is in) it was 72 when I turned it down. I figure I have at least 4 more hours worth of wood in it right now and will load up this evening. The wood was mostly silver maple with a couple/few pieces of oak/ash.

Right now with these temps two almost full loads a day(not Jenga loads) keeps the house a nice steady temp in the low 70's. This morning the house was also still pretty cold since last night we just got in from visiting family for Christmas, I started with a 50* house yesterday when I started the stove so it still had some cold in it last night when I went to bed. Another thing that really impacts the amount of wood these stoves hold is how much ash you let them build up, with a 6" bed of ash you pretty much eliminate a layer of splits that could fit. When it's warmer I let them build up to the top of the bricks, when it gets cold I'll scoop them out some so I can fit some smaller splits in the top of the load.

When it gets colder I want to burn it on 2 or better to see how long it will hold a 500* stove top. I think a 400-500 degree stove top is what this 1981 built house needs to stay warm when it gets in the low 20's or colder.

Someone needs to get really geeky and start a thread where we weigh each load and record stove top temps every hour of the burn or something silly. I'm not going to be the dork to start it though! :coolgrin:

 

[HotCoals]

If you read in the Progress Hybrid thread you will notice the guys are trying to keep the secondary's from firing..they just want the cat action..that says something.

 

[Todd]

We need some type of test
Usable heat times with stove top temps.. with wood species...
For example in my house I know at less than 400 my back rooms will start cooling at night.
During the day (sun shine) my stove will be at 300 ish at 430 pm which I know my back rooms will be going down a couple of degrees
So I put enough in to get temp up but be down by 830 so I can load up for the night
So BK people, what I would like to know is with your stoves are you keeping 4-500+ temps for say 16-20hrs on a full load?
Or is your stove able to keep say a constant 300 temp for 24 hrs or more?
I hope you understand what I am asking and I know everyones situation/house is different.. but just trying to get a real common denominator between the cat and non cat

I really wanted to know this before I bought mine but couldn't find the answers anywhere. My wife loaded mine at 7am this morning, she doesn't load it full like I do, she just tosses in whatever splits I have near the stove. It was in the teens/low 20's this morning so I ran it hot for a while, I have it dialed down now to 1.5 but the thermostat flapper closed just south of 2 so it's on a low burn right now with a 340* stove top.(it's 33* right now according to accuweather) It's 71 in the hallway leading to the family room(hallway thermostat is in) it was 72 when I turned it down. I figure I have at least 4 more hours worth of wood in it right now and will load up this evening. The wood was mostly silver maple with a couple/few pieces of oak/ash.

Right now with these temps two almost full loads a day(not Jenga loads) keeps the house a nice steady temp in the low 70's. This morning the house was also still pretty cold since last night we just got in from visiting family for Christmas, I started with a 50* house yesterday when I started the stove so it still had some cold in it last night when I went to bed. Another thing that really impacts the amount of wood these stoves hold is how much ash you let them build up, with a 6" bed of ash you pretty much eliminate a layer of splits that could fit. When it's warmer I let them build up to the top of the bricks, when it gets cold I'll scoop them out some so I can fit some smaller splits in the top of the load.

When it gets colder I want to burn it on 2 or better to see how long it will hold a 500* stove top. I think a 400-500 degree stove top is what this 1981 built house needs to stay warm when it gets in the low 20's or colder.

Someone needs to get really geeky and start a thread where we weigh each load and record stove top temps every hour of the burn or something silly. I'm not going to be the dork to start it though! :coolgrin:

Stove top temps don't tell the whole story with most cat stoves because you could have a relatively cooler smouldering firebox with a hot as hell cat gorging on smoke which makes the stove top very hot. If you have a full fire box of flames it's not unusual to see lower stove top temps than a low cat burn. I know this is how the Woodstock's work but i'm thinking the Blaze king's are similar, but maybe less extreme because of the t-stat.

 

[Todd]

If you cut off all the secondary air on a non cat you would get the same long burns as a cat but it would be dirty and less efficient.

Unless you reduce the size of that hole by the percentage that your chimney is taller than the 15 foot chimney the stove was designed for.

Can o worms indeed! How did you figure this out, Florida bungalow syndrome or woodburners eye?

 

[BrotherBart]

If you cut off all the secondary air on a non cat you would get the same long burns as a cat but it would be dirty and less efficient.

Unless you reduce the size of that hole by the percentage that your chimney is taller than the 15 foot chimney the stove was designed for.

Can o worms indeed! How did you figure this out, Florida bungalow syndrome or woodburners eye?

Gulland. He has been saying it for years.

 

[iceman]

This is another great thread.... The great debate! Now if only store owners (most of them) were as educated as us and could honestly give people the truth to cat vs non cat
Which is user preference.. and stop saying cats are bad

 

[webby3650]

This is another great thread.... The great debate! Now if only store owners (most of them) were as educated as us and could honestly give people the truth to cat vs non cat
Which is user preference.. and stop saying cats are bad

Cats are bad! Oh, sorry, talking about stoves here. I forgot.

 

[iceman]

This is another great thread.... The great debate! Now if only store owners (most of them) were as educated as us and could honestly give people the truth to cat vs non cat
Which is user preference.. and stop saying cats are bad

Cats are bad! Oh, sorry, talking about stoves here. I forgot.

Lol most in my area are against cats the same way they are against pine!
They have so many negative things to say about cats they will have you wondering why someone even made them!

 

[webby3650]

I hear a lot of negative things in the field about cats. It always ends up being: "I know a guy who heard from a guy that cat stoves are bad, the cat needs replaced every few years". There have been a few issues in the past, but there has been many more good things to say than bad, they just don't get around.

 

[rdust]

I really wanted to know this before I bought mine but couldn't find the answers anywhere. My wife loaded mine at 7am this morning, she doesn't load it full like I do, she just tosses in whatever splits I have near the stove. It was in the teens/low 20's this morning so I ran it hot for a while, I have it dialed down now to 1.5 but the thermostat flapper closed just south of 2 so it's on a low burn right now with a 340* stove top.(it's 33* right now according to accuweather) It's 71 in the hallway leading to the family room(hallway thermostat is in) it was 72 when I turned it down. I figure I have at least 4 more hours worth of wood in it right now and will load up this evening. The wood was mostly silver maple with a couple/few pieces of oak/ash.

Just loaded the stove for the evening and the hot spot on the top was 28x with most the other spots in the 270 range.(if anyone cares) The temp in the hallway got down to 69* we went out to dinner and let it go longer than I would've if I was home. 15 hours with teens in the morning and low 30's for the daytime high keeping the house pretty much 70* the whole time isn't too bad. If I had a King I'm sure it would still be on a 24 hour burn cycle.

 

[Todd]

I hear a lot of negative things in the field about cats. It always ends up being: "I know a guy who heard from a guy that cat stoves are bad, the cat needs replaced every few years". There have been a few issues in the past, but there has been many more good things to say than bad, they just don't get around.

A few years ago I went into a stove shop and when I asked about cat stoves the guy said that's old technology, they don't even make them anymore. I said, that's funny and rattled off 4 or 5 different manufactures including one right here in town, Energy King that they use to sell in their store. I even bought a non cat Energy King from this guy back in 1995. Lack of education i guess.

 

[Todd]

If you cut off all the secondary air on a non cat you would get the same long burns as a cat but it would be dirty and less efficient.

Unless you reduce the size of that hole by the percentage that your chimney is taller than the 15 foot chimney the stove was designed for.

Can o worms indeed! How did you figure this out, Florida bungalow syndrome or woodburners eye?

Gulland. He has been saying it for years.

Gulland is the chit! I don't understand why you non cat guys don't preach the Florida bungalow syndrome more often? Many here would benefit by grinding down those EPA stops.

 

[HotCoals]

A month ago I was in a pool and spa store that sells wood stoves also.
They did not know about eco bricks or anything like that..had bad stuff to say about cats also.
I was going to try and educate them..but thought no use in trying..they already knew everything..I could tell by the way the young guy was talking.

 

[bogydave]

A month ago I was in a pool and spa store that sells wood stoves also.
They did not know about eco bricks or anything like that..had bad stuff to say about cats also.
I was going to try and educate them..but thought no use in trying..they already knew everything..I could tell by the way the young guy was talking.

Buddy just built a new house, asked me which stove I'd recommend, I said BK king.
Salesman sold him a small non cat, stone covered stove.
Now he uses the fuel oil furnace with the stove running to heat his 2600 + sq ft house.
You can't convince folks how well the BKs heat & how long the burn times are.
Maybe because it's "Unbelievable".
I still shake my head when I go down in the morning & see the stove with lots of wood left to burn
One of those thing you "just have to experience before believing"
-5°f now, house 72 , stove burning down the coals with 1 split on the coals.
2200 sq ft, basement install.
Now with sub zero temps:
10PM Full load of birch * 14 hour burn times now, 1/3 load around noon on lots of large coals, 1 split on the coals around 6 PM ,new full load at 10 pm.
Furnace hasn't kicked on since Oct.
Old 1982 BK king burned 10 cords per year, New 2010 BK king, catalytic, last winter, 5-1/2 cords.

 

[HotCoals]

"Old 1982 BK king burned 10 cords per year, New 2010 BK king, catalytic, last winter"..

Same deal here except my old BK was a 87 I believe.
I think I saved a 1/3 last season..but I'm on track to save more this season!
Seeing is believing!

 

[fire_man]

I'm pretty sure cat stoves can get away with passing the EPA test with less air than non cats because they can achieve clean burns with 400-500 degree fire boxes where the non cats need 1100. Less air in, less air out. You can also see this in the flue temps, non cats run hotter stacks from all the posts I've seen here. My internal temp cruises around 400 with a full load where similar sized Hearthstones are almost double that.

I always get a kick out of that. Whether the smoke is burning at 1100 in the firebox or in the cat chamber there is an 1100 degree burn going on in the stove. Only difference is where.

With the non-cat it is in the space between the wood and the baffle. In the cat stove it is in the cat.

Wouldn't the wood burn faster if the firebox itself was at 1100 F, rather than if the cat was 1100 F, since the wood is in the firebox? Just askin???

 

[Hiram Maxim]

I really wanted to know this before I bought mine but couldn't find the answers anywhere. My wife loaded mine at 7am this morning, she doesn't load it full like I do, she just tosses in whatever splits I have near the stove. It was in the teens/low 20's this morning so I ran it hot for a while, I have it dialed down now to 1.5 but the thermostat flapper closed just south of 2 so it's on a low burn right now with a 340* stove top.(it's 33* right now according to accuweather) It's 71 in the hallway leading to the family room(hallway thermostat is in) it was 72 when I turned it down. I figure I have at least 4 more hours worth of wood in it right now and will load up this evening. The wood was mostly silver maple with a couple/few pieces of oak/ash.

Just loaded the stove for the evening and the hot spot on the top was 28x with most the other spots in the 270 range.(if anyone cares) ....... If I had a King I'm sure it would still be on a 24 hour burn cycle.

24-32 hrs is what I get. Black Locusts for the 32hrs :coolsmile:

 

[iceman]

I really wanted to know this before I bought mine but couldn't find the answers anywhere. My wife loaded mine at 7am this morning, she doesn't load it full like I do, she just tosses in whatever splits I have near the stove. It was in the teens/low 20's this morning so I ran it hot for a while, I have it dialed down now to 1.5 but the thermostat flapper closed just south of 2 so it's on a low burn right now with a 340* stove top.(it's 33* right now according to accuweather) It's 71 in the hallway leading to the family room(hallway thermostat is in) it was 72 when I turned it down. I figure I have at least 4 more hours worth of wood in it right now and will load up this evening. The wood was mostly silver maple with a couple/few pieces of oak/ash.

Just loaded the stove for the evening and the hot spot on the top was 28x with most the other spots in the 270 range.(if anyone cares) ....... If I had a King I'm sure it would still be on a 24 hour burn cycle.

24-32 hrs is what I get. Black Locusts for the 32hrs :coolsmile:

What are your stove top temps at say 14-24 hrs?
I know there isn't a sharp drop off with cats... But I see these crazy burn times but at what stove top temps?