Many a question for a new install!

[Kelvin 506]

Greetings Pyros,



I have spent the last few weeks reading up as much as I can in this great forum (thanks!).

After moving into our new 2500 sq ft home in mid-February and burning a 500 gallon tank of oil through the rest of the season I am looking to move to wood burning for cost savings and I really love the comfort of the heat.

The house is a 1930's ranch with ceiling height of 7 1/2 feet. It's an L shape with full basement. The windows are casement wood that swing in, single pane but new storm windows that were installed professionally.

We get to skip the "what should I buy" commentary as I have a new Hearthstone Manchester coming to the house.

Fireplace is at the middle of the L shape in living room. Bedrooms are farthest away at each end of L. The chimney is 25 feet tall (ground to top). I am putting in a flexible liner all the way up (of course). Chimney inspected, no cracks, up for the job. Chimney is 1/4 out of house and 3/4 within the framing of the house. You can see part of the chimney ground to top. It's on the north side of house. It has a clay lining approx 12"x12" after you get past the huge smoke chamber that is over the damper.
1. Should I expect any drafting issues?
2. Fireplace opening is 60" wide, 40" tall. I want to throw the Manchester all the way in it. I will need a serious blocker plate where the damper is. Can I squeeze flex liner in order to pass it through the damper (It's about 5"x 48". Otherwise I may need to do a round from stove to oval through damper and then back to round config up flu, is this doable as I don't want to rip apart damper and brick work?
3. If the stove sits in the fireplace completely can I put a small fan behind stove on ground? I don't want to buy the $400 one but don't want the heat sitting in fireplace cavity. Perhaps I should do the rear heat shield that is purpose built ($$$) or maybe just throw something back ($) there to reflect the heat. Thoughts?
4. Though the stove fits all the way in I probably need to do some shielding of the wood trim around fireplace that sit over stove?
5. I have a huge wood shed (3 cords capacity) , it's like a shed so it's not vented very well though but sits in the sun, should I just stack wood outside with tarp?
6. How close can I stack some indoor wood next to stove? Like right next to it or does it go by stove clearances?

If I hadn't read as much as I did I would have 500 questions! I can't really find a good thread on what is ideal for chimney height details to know about drafting issues.
BTW, all 3 chimneys (6 flus total) and caps and all plumbing vents on roof are all connected to metal spikes sitting atop roof and are grounded for lightning.

Thanks for any input

 

[begreen]

Welcome. That is going to be a great setting for the stove. Nice choice. Good looking dogs too. Would you be opposed to cutting or grinding a notch in the damper to allow the flex to pass? You will definitely need a block-off plate to keep the heat in the room. I would also bring the stove into the room a bit, as far as possible allowing for 16" of hearth in front of the stove door. This will assist natural convection. Here are the fireplace clearances. Wood should be the same distance away as the clearance requirement dictates. It is a combustible. Do you already have several cords in the shed? If so, leave them there. In the future maybe consider modifying the shed for better ventilation?

 

[Grisu]

Welcome to the forum!

1. I doubt it. If anything you may get a little bit too much. It sounds like the fireplace and chimney are mostly interior? In that case an insulated liner may not be required provided the masonry chimney complies with all clearances but would still be beneficial. You could think about an insulated 5.5" liner as your height seems to be good and you will have a bit easier time going through the damper.
2. Ovalizing the liner is possible but cutting a notch in the damper as BG suggested would be better. Good that you will install a block-off plate. Are you doing the whole install yourself?
3. Would that fan and the cable have enough clearances from the stove as they have to be considered combustible? A small fan at the side of the fireplace blowing cold air towards the stove may be safer and also get the heat out. If it is an interior fireplace I would not even worry much. Any trapped heat will warm up the masonry which will slowly release it towards to house. A fan may only be beneficial after a cold start.
4. Check with the manual and ask Heartstone. If the mantel is not straight above the stove you may be ok.
5. 3 cords is not huge. Given your oil consumption I would expect you will need 5 to 6 cords a winter when you burn 24/7. I suggest drying the wood outside that it gets maximum sun and wind and move it in the shed in the fall. Top covering helps IMHO but is not required. Just make sure to leave the sides open and to raise the wood from the ground (pallets, lumber etc.). How much wood do you have and for how long has it been drying?
6. Wood is combustible and therefore needs to be stacked beyond the minimum clearances.

 

[Kelvin 506]

Thanks for posting my questions and your reply. I also appreciate the clearance specs attachment. I have the 24" mantle clearance just barely, but I am confused as to the 21" figure to trim on the left pic. I won't have that so I assume I will need to shield the wood trim with some metal plating.

The stove can come out into the room, I suppose I will just use the rear vent instead of the top vent (stove has 2 I recall). I will also have easier access to the side load door if the stove is move outward. It can be completely out of the fireplace and still meet the front hearth minimum. If I use the rear venting I suppose I should go with a "t" for easier clean out. The go up with black stove pipe until It's not visible and connect to flex ss 316 liner. As for the flu, I just found that the entire housing can be lifted, flipped and bit and taken out. The rim being removed appears to allow the whole 6" pipe to fit through.
I have some wood (came with the house) in the shed and will modify soon but was thinking I should do a small stack on the covered front porch for closer access during the burning season. I also have a back door right next to the stove so could do a mega stack back there. I just don't want to attract snakes to close to the house (yes, we have tons already!).


Thanks again. I think the dogs are going to love the heat source more than the rest of us.

 

[begreen]

Yes, a discrete shield may be required. You could use sheet metal and paint it wood colored or black or perhaps have one made up out of copper? There should be a 1" air gap between the wood and the metal.

For the rear exit scenario, stick with stainless and paint the pipe with a high temp stove paint like StoveBrite or Thurmalox. Getting seasoned wood this late is going to be a challenge depending on where you live. These stoves really want dry wood to burn properly. Buy from a well established reputable dealer that has stored the wood under cover for at least a year and can guarantee it is seasoned. Or consider mixing in a good quality compressed wood product like BioBricks. And don't worry, snakes hibernate during the winter.

 

[Kelvin 506]

Grisu,
I have noticed your comments in talking about liners and sizing etc and am glad you found my post. As I just posted to begreen, I should be able to get the 6' liner through if I just remove the entire damper housing (no 'destruction' required!). Is there any other reason to reduce to 5.5? I just can't get my head around drafting up the flu. I am confident however that the house will give plenty of fresh air to the stove as there are hardly any walls (tons of big windows).
I will forgo the fan behind the stove option as it clearly would have a combustible cord. I am back and forth on the idea of pulling to stove out. I figured the install would be easier off the top of stove and didn't think the clearances would be an issue if stove is completely inside fireplace. The fireplace itself is completely within the framing of the house so maybe keeping it in is better. It will affect foot traffic if pulled out too far, though I worry about the brick taking the heat, I guess it may just retain heat and eventually release it as you suggest???
Thanks for your input.

 

[begreen]

That's a big fireplace. It looks like a fan could be placed a safe distance from the stove and still help circulate the heat if desired, or just put it on the floor next to the fireplace.

 

[bholler]

You should use 6" and either cut or remove the damper frame so there is no need to ovalize. I would also strongly recommend insulating the liner it will improve preformance and make it so there is no issue with clearance to combustibles from the outside of the chimney. As far as pulling the stove out or not as big as your fire box is i would say it is more of an issue of preference i think you will be able to get the heat out of the box if you slide the stove back.

 

[Woody Stover]

Not a big deal to hacksaw out a section of the damper, and hardly any dust.

1. I doubt it. If anything you may get a little bit too much

25' isn't excessive but the stove is apparently an easy breather; Manual said 10' minimum stack height when I last looked! So if you rear exit and pull it out on the hearth, you will have an additional 90* turn which could moderate the draft a little, I don't know. Plus it may be a bit easier to reach the key damper if you install one, and like you said the side door will be more accessible. I like side loading myself... That's one gorgeous stove; I would want it out on the hearth a bit so I could see more of it! What color did you get? I know they had a couple minor issues with the first run of the Manchester, but they probably have those ironed out. I'll be looking for performance updates from you as the season progresses, as I have a couple friends with homes where I think this beauty would work nicely.

 

[Nick Mystic]

Welcome to the forum. Since you said you are interested in getting as much heat from the stove as possible to cut down on your oil bill I would suggest that you pull the stove out into the room as much as possible. You can see in my avatar that I have a similar arrangement to what you will have, except my fireplace opening is a more standard size than yours. I can tell you that a big stove like mine and yours throws a lot of heat off the sides, so the more they are exposed to the room the greater the heating is going to be. My brick chimney is huge
(8' x 4' x 15' inside the house) and it heats up nicely from the stove sitting out front and returns the heat slowly as the stove cools down overnight. However, that slow heat is nothing like the heat the stove throws off while it's burning. Thus, I recommend you try to get the stove out into the room as much as is practical. Good luck. One more thing, you definitely want to go with the T - connector, not just a 90 degree elbow. Even if you don't end up cleaning from the bottom of the T connector it is much safer to have that small cavity for creosote to fall into as it flakes off the inside of your liner than to have it pile up in an elbow where it it right in line with a lot of heat from the exhaust gasses. Creosote gathering in an elbow is a prescription for a chimney fire. Don't ask me how I know!

 

[firefighterjake]

Greetings Pyros, And a warm welcome and howdy do right back at ya . . . seriously . . . welcome to The Hearth.

View attachment 136891

I have spent the last few weeks reading up as much as I can in this great forum (thanks!). Blows one's mind doesn't it . . . seems like you could get lost reading everything here . . . and then just when you figure you've got a handle on things, BANG . . . there's something new to learn. This really is a great site.

After moving into our new 2500 sq ft home in mid-February and burning a 500 gallon tank of oil through the rest of the season I am looking to move to wood burning for cost savings and I really love the comfort of the heat.

The house is a 1930's ranch with ceiling height of 7 1/2 feet. It's an L shape with full basement. The windows are casement wood that swing in, single pane but new storm windows that were installed professionally.

We get to skip the "what should I buy" commentary as I have a new Hearthstone Manchester coming to the house.

Fireplace is at the middle of the L shape in living room. Bedrooms are farthest away at each end of L. The chimney is 25 feet tall (ground to top). I am putting in a flexible liner all the way up (of course). Chimney inspected, no cracks, up for the job. Chimney is 1/4 out of house and 3/4 within the framing of the house. You can see part of the chimney ground to top. It's on the north side of house. It has a clay lining approx 12"x12" after you get past the huge smoke chamber that is over the damper.

1. Should I expect any drafting issues? Just a guess of course . . . but I think . . . probably not . . . except perhaps in the early Fall or late Spring . . . which is typical for many folks when the outside and inside temps are relatively close to each other.

2. Fireplace opening is 60" wide, 40" tall. I want to throw the Manchester all the way in it. I will need a serious blocker plate where the damper is. Can I squeeze flex liner in order to pass it through the damper (It's about 5"x 48". Otherwise I may need to do a round from stove to oval through damper and then back to round config up flu, is this doable as I don't want to rip apart damper and brick work? Uh . . . not my area of expertise . . . now if you need to know how to do macrame then I'm your guy . . . well, not really . . . I've never done macrame either . . . but hopefully someone else will be along to help you on this question . . . or to answer any questions you may have about macrame.

3. If the stove sits in the fireplace completely can I put a small fan behind stove on ground? I don't want to buy the $400 one but don't want the heat sitting in fireplace cavity. Perhaps I should do the rear heat shield that is purpose built ($$$) or maybe just throw something back ($) there to reflect the heat. Thoughts? I think I would try the rear heat shield and have a fan in an adjoining room pushing the air towards the stove. That tends to work pretty well for most folks . . . not sure how it would work with the stove all the way in the fireplace . . . but I'm thinking a fan in there behind the stove would get overheated really, really quickly and die a quick and horrible death . . . and I am sure you don't want a fan's death weighing on your conscience, right?

4. Though the stove fits all the way in I probably need to do some shielding of the wood trim around fireplace that sit over stove? Again, not sure . . . other folks may have a better answer . . . my own take . . . it certainly can't hurt things.

5. I have a huge wood shed (3 cords capacity) , it's like a shed so it's not vented very well though but sits in the sun, should I just stack wood outside with tarp? My own opinion and technique . . . I stack my wood outside for a year or so . . . and then put it under cover. I let the sun and wind season my wood . . . putting it under cover in the woodshed allows some additional seasoning, but I firmly believe the bulk is done outside when it has much better exposure to the elements. For me the woodshed is simply a nice way to store the wood once seasoned so I don't have to go outside in middle of a blizzard and shovel a foot or so of snow and ice off the now partially ripped tarp to get to my wood which may or may not be coated with a layer of snow and ice. Again . . . season outside, place inside when ready.

6. How close can I stack some indoor wood next to stove? Like right next to it or does it go by stove clearances? I have a most definite opinion here . . . and I am even going to all caps . . . HONOR THE CLEARANCES SAYETH THE LORD . . . OK, maybe it wasn't the Lord that said that . . . but yeah, don't do the bonehead thing and try to season the wood more or dry it out by placing it right next to the woodstove or right on it . . . even if you see some wingnut who posts a picture or thread saying that he does it all the time and has done it for 30 years and has never had an issue. It's a very, very, very bad habit . . . right up there with chewing gum with your mouth open . . . or only 25 times worse.

If I hadn't read as much as I did I would have 500 questions! I can't really find a good thread on what is ideal for chimney height details to know about drafting issues.
BTW, all 3 chimneys (6 flus total) and caps and all plumbing vents on roof are all connected to metal spikes sitting atop roof and are grounded for lightning.

Thanks for any input

 

[Kelvin 506]

When I first saw "minister of fire" I thought somebody was lifting a reference from Harry Potter or something! Now I realizw I'm talking with a bunch of evangelists!

I want to install the piping myself (well, with friends I mean) and will go with the SS all the way down to the stove and paint the visible bit as suggested. I will bump the stove out as Nick and other suggested but not all the way as it would affect traffic foot patterns in the house.

Jake, others yes I think I was not putting 2 and 2 together on the proximity of wood to wood stove! Funny. cause now that I think of it I was at a friend's house a long time ago and her dad had a fire going in a fireplace and all of a sudden this dried floral decoration thing on the face of the chimney caught fire. It was eye opening. For some reason I was thinking the clearance regs only applied to fixtures, I've seen people trow boot trays and gloves, scarfs and hats right by a stove to dry them outl Admitteldly the wood is a bit more risky and will not be place near stove. I have another good spot for it anyway. I can use the left side for loading and the right side for the tools thing (whatever those are called).
I don;t really want to insulate the liner unless it is really necessary and will make an appreciable difference.
Oh. I will likely run a total of about 23 feet of liner if I go to the rear vent of stove. And I will use the t as suggested for the soot collection.

Woody: I went with black, brown was 400 more and I would have exceeded the 2500 cap on the Mass tax holiday. I got this stove because my brother got it last year and it works really nicely. He has 2 floors though and it's an open concept loft ceiling on 1 half cape style house so I find that it throws too much heat upstairs. He has a ceiling fan but the heat makes the 3 bedrooms updtairs almost unbearable. Also tje house is about 1800 dq dt and brand new tight insulation in southern NH so I think stove is a bit overkill. I open the window when I sleep over!
I think this stove can do the sq footage I need despite the insulation/windows shortcomings and at a good value, plus I like the long burn/ heat time.

What is a key damper and should I bother?

Where did the term "slammer" come from? just slam it in there and call it a day?

-mike

 

[bholler]

Well unless you have a 1" gap between the outside of the chimney and combustible materials by code you need to insulate the liner. And yes you will also se an appreciable difference. A key damper is a damper put in the pipe used to reduce the volume of air leaving the stove by partially closing off the flue and i don't see why you would need one or honestly how you would operate one with the type of install you are going to do.

 

[Kelvin 506]

Well unless you have a 1" gap between the outside of the chimney and combustible materials by code you need to insulate the liner. And yes you will also se an appreciable difference. A key damper is a damper put in the pipe used to reduce the volume of air leaving the stove by partially closing off the flue and i don't see why you would need one or honestly how you would operate one with the type of install you are going to do.

THanks foor the info. This is another one of those areas where I feel the information is a bit murky. Perhaps many people think the doge is overkill here because the stove shop folks and the chimney sweep dude said no on the insulation. I asked straight up if they intended to insulate and was prepared to pay if they said yes. The flu lines is 6" going in a 12"x12" clay liner. I think they might believe that the gap is far enough to prevent heat transfer. but I really am just guessing. I already bought the stove at that point so it wasn't like they'd lose a sale. Counter to expectations, they were pushing additional work like this.

Can you shed light on the difference you'd expect with the liner insulated? Would it be primarily in the bracket seasons or during fire starts or what? Thanks

 

[bholler]

Well the insulation will keep the flue warmer which means better and more consistent draft faster start up less buildup. And there is the fact that the ul listing for all of these liners says that you need to insulate them in order to get zero clearance to combustibles from the outside of the masonry chimney. Therefore doing so is required by code unless you have the required clearance. And there is no way to keep the liner in the center of that 12 by 12 either it will touch the sides and it can transfer enough heat to eventually start a fire

 

[begreen]

I can see where they are coming from. Based on the installation parameters, interior chimney, 12 x 12 flue, 25ft height, it seems like an uninsulated liner will work ok. The insulated block-off plate is still important.

 

[bholler]

The only ay that an uninsulated liner would be ok was if you had proper clearance and could verify that. If you are calling it an interior chimney (which i don't remember if a one side exposed chimney is interior or exterior) you would than need 2" to combustibles. If you can confirm that the entire length of the chimney go ahead and put in an uninsulated liner. If you cannot you are required by code to insulate it and why wouldn't you anyway is doesn't cost that much more it is not hard and it improves performance and safety to me it is a no brainer.

 

[Kelvin 506]

If you go outside of the house you can see brick from the ground all the way to the top but again, that's only 1 side of the chimney. The rest they built an addition making the house into an L shape and put most of the chimney behind the new construction. Is it combustibles touching the OUTSIDE of the chimney I need to work about or things inside the chimney that may come into contact with the flu line such as creosote on the clay lining? I had it swept (sweeped?) but I suppose there's still some junk stuck to it.
I just find it weird that they could install the liner without insulation and yet still sign off on the work for the permit. I guess the town inspector doesn't come out to verify?

 

[Kelvin 506]

OK, I'm sure you get sick of people asking questions, taking advice and never hearing from them again.
So I'm back with install pics.
I paid a profession chimney sweep to do the 6 inch liner install (not insulated) and he put the existing cap back on the top of the chimney. He didn't have to remove the damper as the flex stainless pipe just barely made it through. He vented out the back of the stove and was able to put a T clean out system in. He went from that to single wall black stove pipe and then up to the flex liner. It would have been a tight squeeze getting the stove in far enough to go top vent unless we used 45 degree angles which wouldn't have looked as nice. The rear of the fireplace gradually slopes in as it goes up so I was concerned the back top of the stove would pinch up against the brick. The biggest thing we realized though was that by leaving the stove out a bit we could not only get the clean out T but we also could utilize the side load door with ease. It would have been difficult and possibly unsafe to try and load wood without a clear and direct path into the chamber. We checked all the clearances per the manual and are OK with the exception of the wood trim I spoke about earlier that sits along the top of the brick. Check out the pictures below. Sweep recommends angled metal (going downward as it leaves the brick facing. We have the side clearances within the allowable range so we only need to put something in for the top trim that sits over the stove.
I'm thinking either copper or iron that sits flat against the brick and at the top angles outward and downward. My thoughts are that I can do a 4 foot wide piece (fireplace opening is 6'). I'm not sure how much to extend the shielding outward, however. Advice appreciated.
Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[begreen]

For the heat shield. I would suggest just the opposite. The metal should come out straight, then bend slightly upward. Did a damper-sealing block-off plate get installed?

 

[Kelvin 506]

For the heat shield. I would suggest just the opposite. The metal should come out straight, then bend slightly upward. Did a damper-sealing block-off plate get installed?

I started looking at pictures and see what you mean. Most seem to angle upward.
He rested a piece of metal on the damper with a hole for the pipe to go through. On top of the metal piece he put some type of fire rated fiberglass looking stuff. He also put a plate at the top of the chimney (under the cap to prevent water and cold drafts from coming down the side of the flu.

BTW, he talked about possibly putting a damper on the up pipe but I don't think he had the room for it or just didn't think it was necessary. He mentioned it after he already working on the install and it was not part of the contracted work. Missed opportunity or unnecessary?

I will look into the shield going upward. Do you think I should just makes sure it comes out far enough to clear all of the wood trim? The trim is 2" deep at the bottom but come out slightly as it goes upwards. I don't think the shield will detract at all of the looks no matter how big it is (within reason) so I want to err on the side of caution.

 

[begreen]

I'm also concerned about shielding the full mantel. If possible I would have it project an inch past it.

 

[Nick Mystic]

As you can see in my avatar photo I have a similar set up to yours. My mantle projects 11 inches out from the front of the fireplace and is 22 inches above my stove. I installed a sheet metal heat shield on the underside of the mantle from the brick fireplace to the front edge of the mantle and the shield extends about a foot beyond the top of the stove on either side. This seems to be working fine since when I take temperature readings with an IR thermometer the underside of the mantle is not very hot beyond where the heat shield ends. Since I'm not burning yet this season I can't give you exact temperatures from memory, but I recall they were only around 120 degrees or there abouts. Over the stove is much hotter and the heat shield was needed there for peace of mind.

Your setup came out looking really nice. I considered that same stove when I bought my Jotul F600, but it was brand new and the brown porcelain finish wasn't yet available. Also I needed a right side door, so I went with the Jotul, which has worked out great. Good Luck.

 

[Kelvin 506]

Yes, I should shield the whole thing. I will have my friend whip something up.
Nick, I hadn't really considered any other stove. Just went with what my brother got and he's happy with it. Soapstone lined but I didn't go with brown. For $300 more I might have done it except I opted to go with a chimney liner with the $. I also looked at the the full soapstone hearthstone stuff but it was just too much $. I think I splurged just enough.