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MaryAnne the Tarm MB30 looking for all the Mike Mulligans

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by aka.bugle, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    I've got a real beat up old copy, (and a pristine reprint) This ones a sweet trip too! Uncle-Louies-Fantastic-Sea-Voyage

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  2. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    This is why I love our members! Information, intelligence and personality. World-class.
    Onward!
  3. arbutus

    arbutus Feeling the Heat

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    I haven't seen that one. I'll ask my wife to see if the library has it the next time she takes the kids (once every other week).
    Katy and the Big Snow is another good one by the same author as Mike Mulligan. Our copies of both these books are very old, but the kids love them.
    My apologies for the hijacking.
    aka.bugle likes this.
  4. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    I'm trying to get my inline air separator closer to my expansion tanks.... is there any problem mounting the LK810 loading unit 12' from the boiler? (all 1 1/4" pipe, sloped for panic gravity flow)
    Screenshot from 2013-11-06 14:15:16.png
  5. 700renegade

    700renegade Member

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    air separator belongs on the lowest pressure, hottest part of the system - normally this would be just above the boiler ( especially if you were 'pumping away'. most of us with ladomatt or danfoss cannot do this ).

    Since your tanks are already stacked vertically why not take advantage of the stratification benefits? And if the piping is done right you shouldn't need the automag you mentioned in the first post.

    I'm not sure why the air-trolls are needed in this system. Perhaps I have something to learn.

    Personally I wouldn't want autofill. If I need to add a few gallons I'd want to know it happened because I did it manually.

    This is how I see this system:

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
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  6. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    Ditto, ditto, ditto. (I would add only that 'pumping away' is not relevant in a boiler-storage loop with fat short pipes. (1.0" or larger, 30 ft or shorter round trip, 20 gpm or less. [Edit:] Let's just say less than 3.5 psi or so of head.))
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  7. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    Renegade... Thank you! are you showing in your pdf the expansion tanks connected at the cold return? I guess I don't understand how a spirovent works ???... I'm showing a B&G Inline Air Sep' at the hot side of the boiler, B&G airtrols and expansion tanks 3/4" pipe from top of B&G IAS.

    ewdudley...
    I'm at 1+1/4" and under 30' .... wahoo! (and the automag is nixed, returned and restocked in New Hampshire)
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  8. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    I think the B&G air separator and Renegade's Spirovent accomplish the same function of separating gas from the flow leaving the boiler. Renegade has added a separate line for expansion water that should be helpful because the water flow to the expansion tank would be cooler and waste a little less heat. Also note that Renegade's design has a line from the top of one tank to the other, which is necessary to equalize the water levels in the tanks.

    I was attempting to invent a rule of thumb for when not to worry about 'pumping away', I've since backpedaled to say don't worry about it if pump head is fairly low.

    I may not have this right, but I think the big thing an Airtrol can do for a system is to prevent a small gentle thermosiphon of hot water up one side of the pipe to the non-bladder expansion tank and a corresponding flow of cool water down the other side. The hot water can absorb gas as it cools in the expansion tank and will deliver the absorbed gas back into the system via the cold water flow, which can add up over the years. Airtrols have a chamber that acts as a thermal trap to prevent this flow.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  9. 700renegade

    700renegade Member

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    If you purchase a Taco Vortech ( I accidentally named it a Hyvent in my diagram as an alternative to the Spirovent ) you can peel the high capacity Hy-Vent auto vent out of the top of it. ( 3/4" mpt ) Put the salvaged vent on top of your storage or wherever else you need it. Run the lines like I show them and for the most part you'll have lukewarm water fed to the expansion tanks and the driver for the thermosiphon is gone. use a 1/2" pex to feed the expansion tank pair and put a thermal trap in the line as it rises if you wish.

    Should save you a bunch of money in parts and with any luck it might even work.

    p.s. - if you try to remove the #419 Hy-vent realize you cannot spin it out by conventional means. If you try to put a pipe wrench on the valve body you are sure to crush it as it's very thin brass. You may have to drive it out by inserting a 1/2" nipple on the internal threads and hope it's not in that cast body too tight
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  10. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    Seems like this would definitely eliminate the need for the Airtrol fittings. I'm still having a hard time believing that the thermosiphon thing is a real problem in the first place, especially when connecting to the return line with small diameter pipe, but I suppose it can't hurt to play along with the teachings of the ancients by adding a heat trap in the piping.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  11. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    I've got my wye-strainer just upstream of the cold return to my loading unit, between the loading unit & the bottom of the storage tanks.

    Chances are the best potential for dirt would be coming out of the bottom of storage, and the most expensive component in the circuit is the loading unit - so I put 2 & 2 together & got that.
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  12. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    Ok now.... I've sent the LK810 back to the supplier (I can't afford a new Mercedes either!) I'm going with a cast iron Grundfos circulator on the supply from the boiler (same specs as the bronze LK810 unit) and a Danfoss thermic valve fitted with a 140 deg. element on the return. I plan on using a battery backup UPS for the circulator in lieu of the automag for power loss/ heat dump situations.... Comments? Screenshot from 2013-11-18 17:26:48.png
  13. 700renegade

    700renegade Member

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    The C3 circulator is traditionally between the Danfoss mix valve and the boiler, and the Automag piping would span across both the Danfoss and the pump. If you leave the check valve in the pump you will get no thermosiphon the way you show it now.

    I'm still not sure why the Airtrols are there, and would stand the storage tanks on end if I had ceiling height. Most guys here aren't crazy about autofill. I'd rather have a sight gauge on my expansion tanks and do it manually.

    I'd also put the expansion tanks vertical if possible to minimize the area of air/water interface.
  14. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    I've got to raise my compression tanks up to get a air control line from the storage tanks sloped up a minimum 1" in 5'. I've got room, heave ho! And What do you guys think about getting rid of the autovents in the storage altogether? forgot to put the y strainer in the sketch (on the return from the storage tanks before Danfoss 140* .) The automag is an option I probably won't do as I have a 600 watt UPS to run the circulator in the event of power loss. (happens all the time here in the Endless Mtns, PA) Screenshot from 2013-11-19 16:32:43.png
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
  15. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    I think it's been mentioned above but may bear repeating; system return/boiler return connect to bottom of lower tank, system supply/boiler supply connect to top of upper tank, top of lower tank connects to bottom of upper tank.
  16. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    I get that... is that not what I've shown?
  17. 700renegade

    700renegade Member

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    No - you are showing the tanks in parallel, not series.
  18. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    I kinda butchered your drawing to show the series thing. Someone may be able to improve.

    [​IMG]

    Attached Files:

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  19. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    Primary circuit plumbing done... light pressure test of the 1200 gallon system.
    1712-231900.jpg 1712-232036.jpg
  20. iceguy4

    iceguy4 Minister of Fire

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    It is expensive...but well worth it! I paid $900+ for 5 radiators to be done..ALL casting roughness was covered by what looks like a ceramic coating...there like a bath tub
  21. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    Results this morning...
    #1 bubble @ 1st 2" nipple upper tank left return
    #2 leak (just a loose union)
    #3 leak (used 1/2" ball valve @ packing nut , before fill valve) (not shown)

    Time to get the smoke pipe fitted to MaryAnne, rinse the all vessels and make some hot water.
    leaktest#1.jpg 1712-231830.jpg
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
  22. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    Are your tanks stacked, or are they side-by-side?
  23. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    storage... piggy back in parallel.
    air control ... tandem side by side

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