Looking for some advice. I have a 1973 VT. Castings Defiant that has to go. It is my primary source of heat and it is really inefficient. (Bad seals, leaky joints...etc...) Someone in the area has a 7 year old Dutch West Model 2461 that was only used the first 2 seasons it was new and they are asking $900. Is this a decent price and does the Dutch West this age of the new efficient burn technology? I never owned a Catalytic stove..... At this price....this stove is only $800 cheaper than a new one....Didn't want to replace mine this season but if this is a deal, I may.....
Model 2461 Dutchwest Help!
- Thread starter dpgoalie
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
- Status
If you get that stove, well this applies to most newer stoves but that stove more than most, you need a supply a dry wood. If your wood is not completely seasoned, you will not have a good time. Not partially seasoned, I mean fully seasoned only, ask me how I know?
When considering new, are you factoring in the 30% tax credit? $900 seems high for a 7 yr old stove unless it's hardly been used. If it has been regularly used, it could be due for a new $$catalyst, gaskets etc.. and turn out to be not so great a bargain.
There are possibly several options for replacement. If we know a bit more about the installation we may be able to suggest some alternatives.
You are right. Even though the stove has only been used a couple of years it is still going on 8 years old....I have not used the tax credit to factor in the price of 1,800 a dealer offered me this stove for....but you have to pay for installation to receive the credit and that seems foolish to me......
About the wood. I have read on several post that even with a Catalytic stove, you CAN burn MOSTLY seasoned wood. I have had Maple out side for the past 7 months and it got rained on several, several times over the last few months......There seems to be differeing opinions about this
About the wood. I have read on several post that even with a Catalytic stove, you CAN burn MOSTLY seasoned wood. I have had Maple out side for the past 7 months and it got rained on several, several times over the last few months......There seems to be differeing opinions about this
seaken
Minister of Fire
dpgoalie said:
It is my understanding that your tax credit applies to the entire "project". I do not think you are required to pay an installer. A self-install is allowed as far as I know. Check with your tax advisor.
I think FireWalker hinted at it. The Dutchwest Convection Catlytic models are very sensitive to using well seasoned wood. You can figure out how to burn "not-so-seasoned" wood if you are determined but those stoves work best with well seasoned wood. It has to do with the design of the secondary combustion system. It works but it is easy to clog it up if you are not paying attention.
I'm not sure how many BTU's you need for your space. The Defiant was capable of over 60,000 BTU/hr if burned at it's higher range. If you tend to "smolder" the burn you are probably closer to 35,000 or 40,000. If you need the 60,000 (about 2000 sq. ft. in the Northeast) than the DW 2461 may be too small. We usually suggest the Model 2462 for replacement of a Defiant. But again, I don't know your space. The 2461 may be fine.
If you are handy and the stove has had light use you may make out okay at the price for the used stove. But that assumes it needs no major work, maybe only a simple cleaning and gasket job. If the catalytic needs replacement that will run near $200. If the baffle is cracked or the refractory combustion chamber is damaged it is not worth it at that price. The warranty has long expired so make sure you are comfortable doing the repair work yourself. If you hire a repair technician that has to be factored in to the cost. I charge anywhere from $299 to $599 to refurbish that model, plus parts.
Personally, I think you would be better off with a new model. You should consider the Model 2462, or the new Non-cat Models (model 2479 in Large or 2478 in Medium) Note that the "Large" model 2461 is the same size as the Non-cat model 2478 "Medium". The 2461 is actually a medium size stove. With the tax credit I think you will come out ahead.
When I had my DW cat stove I got a few nights of "dry" wood from a friend as a test to help find out why I was having trouble heating my home. I remember standing there looking at the thing work, the difference was amazing. The stove still had issues IMHO but good wood made it much more user freindly
Seaken,
Very nicely put. I was actually considering the 2462 not the 2461. (Typo) I am heating an old drafty, 2100 sq. feet, 2 story house . I first considered the 2479 but while reading I saw the the Cat. has a nicer looking finish and comes with the fan and thermostat....I also like that the cat version is more efficient than the non-cat and that it has longer burn times than the 2479, and it doesn't mind being burned at lower temps through the night because of the cat...The Cat version also takes larger logs than the 2479... The only issue is.... How long before I ruin it and have to replace the Cat
Very nicely put. I was actually considering the 2462 not the 2461. (Typo) I am heating an old drafty, 2100 sq. feet, 2 story house . I first considered the 2479 but while reading I saw the the Cat. has a nicer looking finish and comes with the fan and thermostat....I also like that the cat version is more efficient than the non-cat and that it has longer burn times than the 2479, and it doesn't mind being burned at lower temps through the night because of the cat...The Cat version also takes larger logs than the 2479... The only issue is.... How long before I ruin it and have to replace the Cat
Take a close look at the stove unless you know and trust the seller completely. Check for any signs of overfiring, etc. The combustor may already need replacing if the owner burned wet wood and/or trash. It sounds like your wood may not be ideal for getting the most mileage out of a cat stove.
The price sounds high to me. Maybe if it was half that, but once you're up close to a grand for an older model it might be wiser to go new. You then have no worries of potential repairs/rebuilds right off the bat, plus a warranty (beware VC) and 30% tax credit.
The price sounds high to me. Maybe if it was half that, but once you're up close to a grand for an older model it might be wiser to go new. You then have no worries of potential repairs/rebuilds right off the bat, plus a warranty (beware VC) and 30% tax credit.
branchburner said:
I have decided to go new based on what I have heard. VC is hard to deal with huh???? I have heard horror stories about a few companies.
Do you know if the noncat Dutchwest will burn as long as the cat version? I am stuck on the features and benefits of the 2462 over the 2479..... but am a little concerned that my wood may not be completely dry enough.....
I assume you are aware that Dutchwest is a VC brand. Sean is better qualified to comment on the current state of VC and warranty coverage - I just go by the forum posts about expensive parts and poor management, so my caution is based only on the VC bashing that goes on around here. I would love to hear from Sean if things are looking better there. Obviously once a great company - I grew up with an old Defiant as well.
Hanko
Minister of Fire
As with any newer Stove, the wood and chimney draft are very important. I Have has the non cat dutchwest in my shop (1500 Sq ft) going on my 4 th season. Its an excellent stove and heats as well as My Jotul F500. Sometimes i think better.
seaken
Minister of Fire
I would choose the Non-cat DW despite what the brochures lead you to believe. Don't read too much into the posted numbers. In the real world the non-cat versions of the cast DW (Everburn style) tend to easier for the end user to achieve secondary "clean burn". The catalytic version is a capable stove but we have had many more issues with our customers learning how to get it into "clean burn" mode. The Non-cat cast versions tend to just work. They are every bit as efficient and offer the same long burn times. (Note- these comments are not applicable to the plate steel DW models)
There is a learning curve with all of these stoves. I just think most people respond better to the EverBurn style than to any of the catalytic styles. Still, my favorite is the catalytic stoves like the Encore or Defiant. But I am a techie. Most of my customers are better suited to the Everburn style (also available in the VC line and in other brands like Lopi, Avalon, and Harman)
There is a learning curve with all of these stoves. I just think most people respond better to the EverBurn style than to any of the catalytic styles. Still, my favorite is the catalytic stoves like the Encore or Defiant. But I am a techie. Most of my customers are better suited to the Everburn style (also available in the VC line and in other brands like Lopi, Avalon, and Harman)
seaken
Minister of Fire
branchburner said:
Well, VC deserved most of the bashing. CFM was a terrible company and they did a lot of damage to the brand. The problems of expensive parts and poor management appears to have been corrected under the new ownership. VC is now owned by Monessen and they are doing a much better job of managing repairs and warranty issues. Parts prices have come back down to earth and are now in line with other brands.
It's important to note that Vermont Castings is more than a brand. There have been many issues with the corporate management of the brand. Monessen seems to be doing a much better job than CFM. However, the VC business of building quality wood stoves has not changed significantly over the years. We see not more problems with quality in the VC and DW Cast line of wood stoves than we do in any any of our other brands. For us, VC remains among the best quality wood stoves available. In some cases they are best in class. (The Encore and Acclaim still fill a need that is not being covered by other brands).
As with all brands being sold through the specialty hearth industry the brand is less important than the relationship between the dealer and the client (the end user). Some brands will get bashed now and then and even the best brands have been castigated in public by this medium we call the Internet. I have never agreed with the idea that bad reports from others should eliminate the brand or model from consideration. Get the help of a competent and qualified hearth dealer and consider all of your options. One mans trash is another mans treasure.
Nicely put! I have been to 5 local independent dealers in my area, and if they had been any help, I wouldn't be here. You guys gave me more information in this one post than the 6 salesman I spoke to at 4 dealers!
I guess customer satisfaction and pride in your craft is deteriorating across the board.
I guess customer satisfaction and pride in your craft is deteriorating across the board.
seaken
Minister of Fire
dpgoalie said:
Maybe. But I don't think this is anything new. There have always been good dealers and not-so-good dealers. Also, for many dealers the fun has gone out of this business due to the changing times. More litigation, less trust, child-like behavior from many shoppers, more government regulation, more complex appliances, fewer qualified technicians, etc. I'd venture to say that some dealers have long questioned if this is what they want to do. Some dealers are simply not good business people. They sell stoves because they think they're neat or because they think they can make some money. They never gave consideration to how hard it is to run a good business and make customers happy. I don't care what business you're in. It's hard to do. It takes dedication and humility and a lot of risk.
I've thought about hiring a sales person. I just can't bring myself to do it. My suppliers suggest that I could sell more (after all that's what it' all about right? sell more, and more, and more. If you don't sell it someone else will, blah, blah) I believe too strongly that these types of appliances need to be sold, installed and serviced by people who really care about your safety and long term health. Many sales forces will compromise to close the sale. I can't risk becoming that kind of company. So, I don't sell more than I can process safely each year. That means I don't get the awards from the manufacturers and suppliers. So be it. I'm not after awards. (But a lower price and other ways to lower costs would be nice). I'm betting on my customers. I'm betting that if I can learn to consistently give killer service, and pass this on to the next generation, we will thrive. No matter what brands we sell.
There a lot of dealers who share this philosophy. I am by no means alone. It hurts to see that the majority of comments about "dealers" are negative here. It's hard to believe that the majority of dealers are bad, but to read here it would seem they are more plentiful than the good-natured competent dealers I know are in this business. When I work in this business I rub shoulders with many more good dealers than bad. The bad dealers are out there but I don't think it has deteriorated to them being the majority. But there is a saying that is appropriate for our industry - a bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. Most of us are trying to make sure the bad apples don't ruin our reputation with our communities, our customers.
Sean, thanks for all the thoughtful and detailed posts in this thread! I think a lot of customer problems in any retail business stem from the range of knowledge and enthusiasm that is possessed by both customers and merchants. Any retailer has a number employees, some with great passion and perhaps some with none. It is up to the customer to seek out the person who can best answer his questions, but is also up to the customer to first do a little footwork and figure out what questions to ask! A lot of customers expect merchants to be mind readers with infinite amounts of time and patience, and amazingly, some merchants are pretty close to that (you sound like you might be one). But expecting each individual in any business to be a passionate expert dedicated solely to satisfying your every invisible need will surely lead to some disappointments.
seaken
Minister of Fire
branchburner said:
Thanks branchburner. I know that most people get it, like you do. But it sure feels sometimes that we're running a day-care facility! I mean to offend no one, but when I just step back and observe I see a lot of the complaints from customers are simply based on childish me-first attitudes. All take and no give.
Yeah, I have some time today due to the holiday. I've not been around here for awhile. Too busy trying to survive and keep this business going in the right direction. I certainly do not have infinite amounts of time but I do share a lot of what I know when I can. I do find myself getting overwhelmed sometimes. It is typical for me to walk into the store from some of my road appointments and get swamped with questions. It's like everyone was waiting for me to walk in so they can get something from me. I don't handle that too well sometimes. The other day I just slipped out the back door and went up to the warehouse. I think that some of these stories from customers about poor customer service is just bad timing. I've been guilty of putting customers off. I don't mean to do it but sometimes it just happens. That makes me a "bad" dealer for that moment. But that doesn't make me a bad dealer, no matter how many messages are placed on the internet by that one customer who got slighted.
- Status
Similar threads
