Need Guidance on 1st installation.

[Appleby]

Hi all. I'm new to the board and have been reading here just about every second. since I found it I just bought my first stove, an Englander 30-NC. I wanted to start modest until I get the feel for things. I live in Eastern Pennsylvania on top of a very high hill. The house is 2800sf, has 2 large fire places, and I would consider the insulation to be medium at best. The place is often very cold which is why we are going the stove route. Anyhow, I am quite handy but have never tackled a stove install. It seems like it should be uncomplicated enough but I am having trouble putting it all together so I thought I would plead for help here. I hope these questions are not "beating a dead hourse". Here are some photo's of my set up.

Englander set in place. I will be removing the wood mantel so combustibles will be of no issue at all.

Photo of masonry brick chmney from the outside. Sorry it's dark.

Photo of flu cover looking up. I will probably need to knock or cut this out.

So there is about a 20' chimeny with a 12x12 clay liner. The Englander calls for a 6" flu so I will obviously line the entire length with 6". It will virtually be a straight shot right up the chimeny with no bends once past the cover. But here is a list of things I still have questions about. Bare with me if some of them seem really "green". I've done some searches and have come up blank or at least missed it.

1. Will I need any double walled pipe at all? I would think not since I believe I am already class A with the clay lined chimeny

2. Assuming I have to do some minor bends out of the wood burner to get up into the chimeny would you use a flexible pipe or do you have to buy rigid elbows?

3. Are there any efficiency of safety issue with having the insert push all the way back into the fire place opening?

4. Do I need a spark arrester at the top of the chimney or just a cover? The chimney now extends about 6' above the roof.

5. I'm really confused about flu pipe support and secureing the top of the chimney in this type of set up. Really confused.

6. Do I need a "Kit" for an install like this????


If someone could go over this stuff with me I would really appreciate it. I'm going to be ordering all the materials on line most likley and I would like to get it right the first time so I can warm this place up a bit. Thanks and I look forward to becoming an active member here.

 

[cmonSTART]

Wow that is a monster of a fireplace! Nice choice of stove!

 

[Appleby]

Yes, only dwarfed by this one on the other side of my house which is getting a Jotul Oslo placed in it in a few weeks.

Yes......we had a little accident with the wood header (installed by previous owner) and I am removing it and replacing with metal of precast.

 

[Appleby]

Found this

"One end of the assembly must be securely fastened to the flue collar with 3 sheet metal screws and the other end securely fastened to the chimney. "

I guess this will support the pipes from above?

 

[BrotherBart]

I have my 30-NC mounted in a fireplace, a shorter and narrower one, and here are my two cents worth:

1. Will I need any double walled pipe at all? I would think not since I believe I am already class A with the clay lined chimeny

No double wall needed.

2. Assuming I have to do some minor bends out of the wood burner to get up into the chimeny would you use a flexible pipe or do you have to buy rigid elbows?

I used a stainless steel 30 degree elbow off the top of the stove for this connected to a flexible liner.

3. Are there any efficiency of safety issue with having the insert push all the way back into the fire place opening?

Zip, Nada, Zilch with that fireplace. The heat coming out of the rear heat shield and from the sides will roll right out of that fireplace into the room. I had to use a blower because of the tight fit in the fireplace. I don't think you need one. But you will need a sheet metal block off plate up at the damper frame to keep your heat from going up the chimney and warming bricks and the great outdoors.

4. Do I need a spark arrester at the top of the chimney or just a cover? The chimney now extends about 6’ above the roof.

You need a chimney cap and top plate at the top. Both will come with a liner kit.

5. I’m really confused about flu pipe support and secureing the top of the chimney in this type of set up. Really confused.

The top plate will support the liner from the top.

6. Do I need a “Kit” for an install like this????

Yep. Get a full kit. Tell them you need a stove adapter in place of the tee that they usually have in the kits. You will probably end up mating the stove adapter to the top of the elbow.

Dang that stove looks like it was born for that fireplace!

 

[begreen]

I agree with BB, but would add getting an insulated liner for the exterior chimney. And I would go ahead and get the blower kit. You may run it on low but getting heat to the rest of the 2800 sq ft will take circulation. The blower will help.

 

[Appleby]

Up at 3:30am with this dang cold!! Ugh.


Anyhow. I'm installing a second wood burner (OSLO) in the second fire place at the opposit side of the house so I am not sure I will need blowers on either. Bothj burners will be able to rolll heat up each of the two stair wells. I'm going to go for wihtout them at first. I should have up to 4000sf of heating capacity in a perfect world so I should be able to make a dent in 2800sf. We like it TOASTY.


What is the typicaly strategy for working with getting the pipe up existing flue covers. DO folks try and knock them out or cut them out. I haven't tried either yet and have a guy that could cut a hole in the things for me.

Thanks for all the help so far. I am really excited about the future. No stoves tonight, 18 degrees outside, and only 64 degrees inside. To say I want my stoves cooking is an understatement!

 

[raybonz]

Yes, only dwarfed by this one on the other side of my house which is getting a Jotul Oslo placed in it in a few weeks.

Yes......we had a little accident with the wood header (installed by previous owner) and I am removing it and replacing with metal of precast.

That's a beautiful fireplace!

Ray

 

[Appleby]

Well, That is one THICK walled brick fire place/chimney. It has a clay liner, solid filled 8" CMU units, and then standard brick all the way up. Even with that set do you still think I would lose heat to the outside????? I would think that I could seal off the top and bottom and keep that chimney toasty but if you guess say otherwise I will spend the cash and go insulated.

Would I need to go insulated 100% of the length?

 

[BrotherBart]

I intentionally left the insulate/not insulate issue to others because I knew they would be along posthaste. Though there is no question that an insulated liner is preferable from a safety perspective, and maybe a draft perspective. I did not insulate my liner. A lot had to do with the 7X11 interior flue size not having enough room to do it. My liner on my 30-NC is a 5.5" flex liner with a 21 foot straight shot to the sky like yours will be. And the draft takes off in five minutes with good kindling. I look at insulation in a chimney like yours as strictly a draft and safety thing. If their is any question about the chimney condition I would insulate. Same with if the masonry leached enough heat from the pipe to have a negative effect on draft. It has nothing to do with heating your house. With the bottom block off plate installed then heat going up the pipe is either going out the top of the pipe or being absorbed into the chimney masonry. It ain't gonna be heating your house.

The floor is now open. Let the debate begin. 8-/

 

[Appleby]

you will need a sheet metal block off plate up at the damper frame

So I assume this is something that fabrication myself or do I need to get some to create one. I have no expereicen but I highly doubt I am buying an over the counter plate for this application.

Can anyone advise me on what they feel is the best place to navigate through pipe options and purchase online or by phone for that matter (all the better)? I'm not backing off and looking at next weekend for complete install of both stoves. This will allow me to get everything and have the dampers cut out for my 6" pipe as well as other odds and ends. I would like to order everything today if possible.

 

[Appleby]

ME TOO!!

 

[seaken]

I look at insulation in a chimney like yours as strictly a draft and safety thing. If their is any question about the chimney condition I would insulate. Same with if the masonry leached enough heat from the pipe to have a negative effect on draft. It has nothing to do with heating your house. With the bottom block off plate installed then heat going up the pipe is either going out the top of the pipe or being absorbed into the chimney masonry. It ain't gonna be heating your house.

The floor is now open. Let the debate begin. 8-/

"It has nothing to do with heating your house."
Not sure what you mean. Heat lost to the chimney is heat that cannot be used for the house. So, it does have something to do with heating the house. For maximum efficiency you should insulate the liner and add the blower, and even a metal deflector shield behind the stove and in front of the brick. However, it may not be practical to try and achieve maximum efficiency and this may be your point. The stove will probably give you enough heat without going to the trouble and you may not get a measurable improvement anyway.

The reality is this. The cold outside will cause the brick to wick away a certain amount of heat. This becomes more of a problem when you are an occasional user and doing a lot of startups. If your stove is big enough and you never let it go out the heat-loss will be overcome. On really cold days, near zero degrees, the wick effect may be more noticeable and you may need to stoke your stove a little more. But on normal days the brick will reach equilibrium as long as you keep the fire going. Some BTUs will be lost to maintain this equilibrium but it will not be significant if your stove is big enough. Some experimentation will be needed to determine if there should be an effort to accessorize for maximum potential efficiency. If you would prefer to start out with the maximum potential efficiency you should insulate the liner, install an insulated bock-off plate, add the blower, and maybe even put a metal deflector behind the stove.

 

[seaken]

3. Are there any efficiency of safety issue with having the insert push all the way back into the fire place opening?

Zip, Nada, Zilch with that fireplace. The heat coming out of the rear heat shield and from the sides will roll right out of that fireplace into the room. I had to use a blower because of the tight fit in the fireplace. I don't think you need one. But you will need a sheet metal block off plate up at the damper frame to keep your heat from going up the chimney and warming bricks and the great outdoors.

I do not take such a matter of fact position. I think there are potential efficiency and safety issues that should be explored. See my post above about the potential efficiency issues. As to the safety issues, it is much harder to tell from here. You need a local professional to diagnose the safety issues relative to masonry chimneys built into standard combustible stick-built homes. In general, an insulated liner often solves obvious or hidden clearance issues. The placement of the stove also comes into play with the hearth and mantel or surrounds, etc. Make sure you understand the codes and install accordingly.

 

[BrotherBart]

Sean the question was about insulation of the flue between the block off plate and the top cap. Heat lost to masonry between the block off and the top plate was never going to get into the living space in the first place unless it is an interior chimney. Which this one is not.

Yes, heat lost through the back of the fireplace is a heat loss. Not gonna be much of that since the 30-NC is standard with a good convection heat shield on the back.

 

[seaken]

Sean the question was about insulation of the flue between the block off plate and the top cap. Heat lost to masonry between the block off and the top plate was never going to get into the living space in the first place unless it is an interior chimney. Which this one is not.

Yes, heat lost through the back of the fireplace is a heat loss. Not gonna be much of that since the 30-NC is standard with a good convection heat shield on the back.

Okay, I get it. You were limiting your answer to the insulation of the liner. I would argue that an insulated liner will lead to higher overall efficiency but I also understand that it will be hard to prove without a lab study. Still, the insulation will lead to less creosote buildup and lower the chances of chimney fire as well as the potential deduction in cross-sectional area or even a blockage.

 

[BrotherBart]

Okay, I get it. You were limiting your answer to the insulation of the liner. I would argue that an insulated liner will lead to higher overall efficiency but I also understand that it will be hard to prove without a lab study. Still, the insulation will lead to less creosote buildup and lower the chances of chimney fire as well as the potential deduction in cross-sectional area or even a blockage.

I agree completely.

 

[begreen]

Just a small additional thought to the excellent observations already posted. The rapid cooling of the flue gases in an unlined - exterior chimney - often lead to excess creosote accumulation. This can become a safety issue if not kept up with and a nuisance unless you like frequent chimney cleanings. The other nuisance is smoke spilling out of the stove when you open the door while the stove is warming up. Marginal draft can occur with a perpetually cold flue. An insulated liner + block-off plate will help mitigate this problem.

You are correct, a block off plate is fitted on location out of sheetmetal. Here's a link to a wiki article on block off plates. In it there is a link on how to make and install:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Why_damper_seal_is_needed/

PS: that is one beautiful fireplace!

 

[elmoleaf]

In addition to all of the points raised by others, I'd verify that those brick hearth extensions are built correctly.
Make sure that the brick is installed on a concrete slab extending from the chimney structure.
They should not be sitting on top of a wood subfloor or supported by wood framing from below. If either stove is installed on top of those extensions in such a condition, radiant heat through the brick layer may set your house on fire.

 

[Appleby]

My entire first floor is a concrete slab. No issues there are all.

 

[BrotherBart]

My entire first floor is a concrete slab. No issues there are all.

And all of the walls are masonry too, aren't they?

 

[Appleby]

God I wish....I wouldn't be having heating problems then. It's your typical wood framed drywall construction for the most part.