My 2005 Quadrafire Castile pellet stove caught fire last week. The pellets in the top drop area were burning. The fire department was called. The stove was professionally cleaned in November by the dealer I purchased it from. My insurance company is going to pay for the purchase of a new stove. My concern is now I am not so sure of the safety of these. I was under the impression that there were several safety features in this brand and that it was safe to run while you are asleep and out of the house. I am concerned for the safety of my family and pets. What can you tell me to regain my assurance in this pellet stove as a safe appliance? How do I know that this will not happen again? To make things even more scary, my smoke detector right above the stove did not sound. Fire dept. tested it and it worked, just not in this situation.
Need help to rebuild confidence in safety...
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SmokeyTheBear
Minister of Fire
First of all did the stove actually dump smoke into the room prior to you noticing it? If it didn't dump smoke then a smoke detector wouldn't activate, if it did dump smoke then the smoke detector you have isn't really a smoke detector or it requires a large amount of smoke to activate but a heat detector. They come in different flavors.
In some stoves the final line of defense against burning the house down is for the stove to contain the fire and eventually smother it.
That is why it is critical that you never run a pellet stove with the hopper door open and that on some stoves you need to maintain a gasket and latch the hooper door shut.
Any appliance that produces heat by any means represents a possible fire hazard.
In some stoves the final line of defense against burning the house down is for the stove to contain the fire and eventually smother it.
That is why it is critical that you never run a pellet stove with the hopper door open and that on some stoves you need to maintain a gasket and latch the hooper door shut.
Any appliance that produces heat by any means represents a possible fire hazard.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
I have owned and still own two (2) Quads and have had zero issues.
I have owned 2 Earth stoves in the Past and no issues either.
Currently have added two Whitfield stoves to the stable.
I am currious as to how it was discovered that the pellets in the top of the drop tube were on fire ????
This is a very tough place to get to.
The pellets are fed via the auger up to the drop tube and from there they fall by gravity into the burn pot.
The only situation that I can think of thart could cause a "Back Burn" would be an air leak in the area of the junction of the drop tube and the auger.
This could allow the drop tube to act like a "Chimney".
Now the Quad is a negative pressure stove, this means that the burn pot and chamber where the fire is located is all under a slightly lower than atmosphere pressure.
This is due to the exhaust fan pulling air through the system.
The ability of air to flow in is just slightly less than the outflow so hence the slight negative pressure.
OK, this all said the idea is that air in small quantities is pulled down the drop tube keeping hot combustion gases out.
You stove could have suffered an exhasut fan failure resulting in what happened.
The draft inducer fan located in the area under the burn pot chamber would have been feeding the fire with air but without the exhaust fan sucking the combustion gases out the drop tube could have become an easy path for the hot gas to try and follow.
These stoves are equipped with over fire sensors that will shut them down in the event of high temp.
I have not seen an exhaust fan failure on one of these.
There is also a pressure sensor on the stove too that senses the chamber pressure. If the sensor does niot see a negative pressure (Exhaust fan failure) the switch opens and the fire goes out.
As far as safety goes.
Any home with a heating device that burns anything (gas ,oil, wood, coal etc) needs to have smoke detectors and CO detectors located in or near all sleeping quarters.
The old stove needs to be completely checked over by a qualified tech and a good thorough autopsy done to discover why this incident happened.
There had to be a failure somewhere to cause a burnback of this nature.
I would be in contact with the folks that build the Quads and see what answers they have.
Dont let them take the stove as any answers could possibly disapear never to be revealed.
Like I said 15 years with two Quads here at the ranch and never an issue.
Keep us posted
Snowy
I have owned 2 Earth stoves in the Past and no issues either.
Currently have added two Whitfield stoves to the stable.
I am currious as to how it was discovered that the pellets in the top of the drop tube were on fire ????
This is a very tough place to get to.
The pellets are fed via the auger up to the drop tube and from there they fall by gravity into the burn pot.
The only situation that I can think of thart could cause a "Back Burn" would be an air leak in the area of the junction of the drop tube and the auger.
This could allow the drop tube to act like a "Chimney".
Now the Quad is a negative pressure stove, this means that the burn pot and chamber where the fire is located is all under a slightly lower than atmosphere pressure.
This is due to the exhaust fan pulling air through the system.
The ability of air to flow in is just slightly less than the outflow so hence the slight negative pressure.
OK, this all said the idea is that air in small quantities is pulled down the drop tube keeping hot combustion gases out.
You stove could have suffered an exhasut fan failure resulting in what happened.
The draft inducer fan located in the area under the burn pot chamber would have been feeding the fire with air but without the exhaust fan sucking the combustion gases out the drop tube could have become an easy path for the hot gas to try and follow.
These stoves are equipped with over fire sensors that will shut them down in the event of high temp.
I have not seen an exhaust fan failure on one of these.
There is also a pressure sensor on the stove too that senses the chamber pressure. If the sensor does niot see a negative pressure (Exhaust fan failure) the switch opens and the fire goes out.
As far as safety goes.
Any home with a heating device that burns anything (gas ,oil, wood, coal etc) needs to have smoke detectors and CO detectors located in or near all sleeping quarters.
The old stove needs to be completely checked over by a qualified tech and a good thorough autopsy done to discover why this incident happened.
There had to be a failure somewhere to cause a burnback of this nature.
I would be in contact with the folks that build the Quads and see what answers they have.
Dont let them take the stove as any answers could possibly disapear never to be revealed.
Like I said 15 years with two Quads here at the ranch and never an issue.
Keep us posted
Snowy
Jack Morrissey
Feeling the Heat
Like Snowy Rivers, I too would be looking for answers from your dealer and Quadrafire as too how this happened. I know you said you had a thorough cleaning this year, how often do you dump the firepot??
Came home and the house was filled with smoke. First Alert smoke detector on the back: "smoke sensitivity 1.35%/FT +-0.60%/FT".
the firepot gets emptied out and scrapped about every 4 days. Have never had a problem with it since the purchase of it in 05. I love it and it really helps out with the oil heating bills.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
If the house was FULL of smoke then the detector is not worth squat.
My detectors howl like a Banshee if the toaster gets a little overzelous with the toast and you can't even see anything in the air.
Now for the house to be full of smoke ????
What was the state of the stove when you arrived?? Running, shut off or ???
I clean my Quads twice a season if they need it or not.
I have left them go until the heat exchangers were so skunked up that the fire was lazy and dirty. Still no smoke in the room just not a very efficient burn was all
If the stove had misfired and shut down due to a small clinker partially blocking the igniter port, you could have had the pellets in the pot catch after the stove was off and then the fire could work its way up the drop tube.
There has to be a logical answer here as to why this happened.
I have had a few pellets drop down into the fire pot after the exhaust fan has shut down and with a pot that is still fairly hot those pellets will smolder and smoke up the house.
Are you sure that this is not what happened.
It is extremely tough for a fire to get started in the upper drop tube area simply because of distance from the fire to the top of the tube.
The tube does not (Not supposed to) have an outlet but connects to the auger tube and heads down to the lower end of the hopper.
Hot gasses, smoke etc likes to go UP.
My gut feeling says, a missfire that left the handfull of pellets to smolder and leak out into the room.
A very small amount of pellets (10-20 pieces) if left to smolder will make a lot of smoke
More info Please.
Snowy
My detectors howl like a Banshee if the toaster gets a little overzelous with the toast and you can't even see anything in the air.
Now for the house to be full of smoke ????
What was the state of the stove when you arrived?? Running, shut off or ???
I clean my Quads twice a season if they need it or not.
I have left them go until the heat exchangers were so skunked up that the fire was lazy and dirty. Still no smoke in the room just not a very efficient burn was all
If the stove had misfired and shut down due to a small clinker partially blocking the igniter port, you could have had the pellets in the pot catch after the stove was off and then the fire could work its way up the drop tube.
There has to be a logical answer here as to why this happened.
I have had a few pellets drop down into the fire pot after the exhaust fan has shut down and with a pot that is still fairly hot those pellets will smolder and smoke up the house.
Are you sure that this is not what happened.
It is extremely tough for a fire to get started in the upper drop tube area simply because of distance from the fire to the top of the tube.
The tube does not (Not supposed to) have an outlet but connects to the auger tube and heads down to the lower end of the hopper.
Hot gasses, smoke etc likes to go UP.
My gut feeling says, a missfire that left the handfull of pellets to smolder and leak out into the room.
A very small amount of pellets (10-20 pieces) if left to smolder will make a lot of smoke
More info Please.
Snowy
SmokeyTheBear
Minister of Fire
concerned pellet said:
That sensitivity figure is a measurement of the amount of light obscured in the detection chamber in order for the detector to sound, if the detector doesn't get sufficient smoke into the chamber for any reason it will not sound.
Simple cobwebs or dust build up can cause them not to see enough smoke to trigger. This is why they need to be cleaned regularly.
Now as Snowy has said there it is likely several things that happened to cause the burn back.
One of the things that you haven't told us is did anything other than the stove burn?
I know that the manufacturers are always extremely interested when such incidents occur.
Actually just the room where the stove is was full of smoke and it was still running, and dropping pellets down even though the pot was full. I thought that if the pot was full and it could not get air it would automatically shut off. Was out of the house at the time, and returned home to find this.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
Before any of these stoves are ever released for production, they are subjected to a metric BUTTLOAD of tests to see what will happen in the even of all sorts of combinations of equipment failures.
Any combination of events have likely been tried to simulate real world failures.
The Quad is a "Bottom sucker" in that the fires hot gases go up through the heat exchangers and then down through the exhaust fan and then out.
Any time the fan is not running there exists the possibility that any smoke inside the stove will leak out into the room.
The Quad runs the exhaust fan a long time after the fire is shut down to allow for any burning materials to completely burn out and the stove to cool before the fan is shut off.
BUTTTT just like in a power outage these critters can, if the fire is going, leak into the room out through the air inlet area.
Snowy
Any combination of events have likely been tried to simulate real world failures.
The Quad is a "Bottom sucker" in that the fires hot gases go up through the heat exchangers and then down through the exhaust fan and then out.
Any time the fan is not running there exists the possibility that any smoke inside the stove will leak out into the room.
The Quad runs the exhaust fan a long time after the fire is shut down to allow for any burning materials to completely burn out and the stove to cool before the fan is shut off.
BUTTTT just like in a power outage these critters can, if the fire is going, leak into the room out through the air inlet area.
Snowy
nothing else in the house burned. Just left a lingering smell. Fire dept poured water in it, to put fire out.
SmokeyTheBear
Minister of Fire
concerned pellet I'm certain that you would rather have joined Hearth.com under different circumstances, but just the same please be assured that we are extremely interested in exactly what occurred for several reasons not the least of which we all burn pellets and are therefor in the same boat you are. We also have spent a lot of time getting to know our stoves and have watched them in various situations.
Welcome to the forums and bear with us a bit as we dissect the situation you ran into.
Welcome to the forums and bear with us a bit as we dissect the situation you ran into.
I am very thankful for all of the information offered here. I am going today to look into a new stove as a replacement.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
OK
The Quad is designed to dump a small amount of pellets into the burn pot and then shut the auger off.
The Exhaust fan and combustion blower are running adding air to the pot.
The ignitor is heating and will in short order start the pellets buring.
Once the fire ignites and the thermal prob (Pyro) senses enough heat then the auger will start up and feed the fire.
To have a pot full of pellets is not right.
Causes could be a failed thermal probe, a failed ECM (Computer)
There is not a normal condition that would see a pot clear full of pellets.
The exhaust fan should have sucked the smoke out of the stove.
Possible failures.
Exhaust fan failure or chimney clogged up with a critter nest ??
Failed heats sensor probe
Failed computer.
These stoves are designed so that they are not supposed to drop more than a small amount of pellets until the ECM sees proof of a fire buring in the POT.
Snowy
The Quad is designed to dump a small amount of pellets into the burn pot and then shut the auger off.
The Exhaust fan and combustion blower are running adding air to the pot.
The ignitor is heating and will in short order start the pellets buring.
Once the fire ignites and the thermal prob (Pyro) senses enough heat then the auger will start up and feed the fire.
To have a pot full of pellets is not right.
Causes could be a failed thermal probe, a failed ECM (Computer)
There is not a normal condition that would see a pot clear full of pellets.
The exhaust fan should have sucked the smoke out of the stove.
Possible failures.
Exhaust fan failure or chimney clogged up with a critter nest ??
Failed heats sensor probe
Failed computer.
These stoves are designed so that they are not supposed to drop more than a small amount of pellets until the ECM sees proof of a fire buring in the POT.
Snowy
SmokeyTheBear
Minister of Fire
concerned pellet said:
Glad to hear that other than the lingering smell nothing else was damaged nor was anyone hurt.
I will add this one thing however the fire department shouldn't have used water if the stove was still plugged in.
And a question for you, how did the firemen test the smoke alarm to determine it was working?
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
Just food for thought here.
I dont want to scare you BUTTTTTTT All newer pellet stoves are run by a computer and use sofisticated electronics to control the thing.
These computers (Control boards) are subject to failures and if you follow the posts here you will read about them in gory details.
Before I ran off and bought a new stove I would dig to the bottom of the issue and find out what happened and why.
Unless the stove was physically burnt there is likely nothing wrong with it that can't be fixed with some new parts.
If your house has any smoke damage other than what can be aired out in a little while, your insurance will cover that issue.
Take a deep breath, and go slowly, find out what happened and why. From that point the solution be found and the problem fixed.
I fully understand your concern for your family and your home and would recommend some better smoke detectors and for sure a CO detector in all sleeping areas.
The CO units I have simply plug into a wall outlet and have a battery backup.
Easy simple and safe.
CO worries me more than the smoke does.
Please keep us posted
Snowy
I dont want to scare you BUTTTTTTT All newer pellet stoves are run by a computer and use sofisticated electronics to control the thing.
These computers (Control boards) are subject to failures and if you follow the posts here you will read about them in gory details.
Before I ran off and bought a new stove I would dig to the bottom of the issue and find out what happened and why.
Unless the stove was physically burnt there is likely nothing wrong with it that can't be fixed with some new parts.
If your house has any smoke damage other than what can be aired out in a little while, your insurance will cover that issue.
Take a deep breath, and go slowly, find out what happened and why. From that point the solution be found and the problem fixed.
I fully understand your concern for your family and your home and would recommend some better smoke detectors and for sure a CO detector in all sleeping areas.
The CO units I have simply plug into a wall outlet and have a battery backup.
Easy simple and safe.
CO worries me more than the smoke does.
Please keep us posted
Snowy
From what I'm reading is you want someone in this forum to guaretee your home safety. NO ONE on a internet discussion forum can do that. Change heating sources now. The first moment you draw a breath of life there will be risks of injury and death. The insurance company can replace some of the material things, but not life. YOU use the best judgement for your circumstances. Any heat producing machine can have risks of some kind. I've reaped benefits from this forum for troubleshooting and maitenance tips for a pellet stove, but if things go wrong it's my responsibility and my problem. MY TWO CENTS. bjr23
it was unplugged by the time the fire dept got here and poured the water in it. I am def going to add some extra smoke and CO detectors. I have a CO det. up in hallway of bedrooms, but don't have one in family room where stove is.
SmokeyTheBear
Minister of Fire
concerned pellet,
On the smoke/co detector issue you need a decent multi mode detector and they need to be kept clean. That push the test button doesn't actually test the detector, it is a test of the power and alarm circuits only. In order to truly test the detectors you need a precision smoke emitting wand designed for testing them. Not a common device.
Snowy is correct about the stoves basic parts likely being fine, in any event you need to take your time figuring out what to do.
Snowy,
The computer controlled stuff is also why folks on here that go for component level parts replacement can find themselves up the creek without a paddle.
I've seen rather massive fire pot build up in a Quad, wrknonfire had such a situation, the cause it appears was a bad fire pot area gasket and broken (how, he didn't say) bolt.
bjr23,
concerned pellet isn't asking for a guarantee from us on anything, just a bit of reassurance that the stoves are reasonably safe. It is a very traumatic experience to come home to a lot of smoke in your home.
On the smoke/co detector issue you need a decent multi mode detector and they need to be kept clean. That push the test button doesn't actually test the detector, it is a test of the power and alarm circuits only. In order to truly test the detectors you need a precision smoke emitting wand designed for testing them. Not a common device.
Snowy is correct about the stoves basic parts likely being fine, in any event you need to take your time figuring out what to do.
Snowy,
The computer controlled stuff is also why folks on here that go for component level parts replacement can find themselves up the creek without a paddle.
I've seen rather massive fire pot build up in a Quad, wrknonfire had such a situation, the cause it appears was a bad fire pot area gasket and broken (how, he didn't say) bolt.
bjr23,
concerned pellet isn't asking for a guarantee from us on anything, just a bit of reassurance that the stoves are reasonably safe. It is a very traumatic experience to come home to a lot of smoke in your home.
hearthtools
Moderator Emeritus
I have not seen or maybe I missed it has it been asked
How was the stove installed or vented?
in 19 years I have seen this type of thing and it is always from not being installed/vented correctly
and OR
USER ERROR. not cleaning the stove properly and or the stove not burning correctly and the user just keeps buring the stove.
and the combustion chambers and heat exchange gets plugged up and then the exhaust has to go somewhere so it just goes to the next place it can. the hopper.
I know this is not the same stove but here is some photos of a repair on a martin stove that the RENTER just kept burning the stove without sealing the hopper and had a burn back. she just kept using the stove even with the burned pellets in the hopper.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Oakhurst-CA/The-Stove-Doc/61927828163?v=photos#!/album.php?aid=143804&id=61927828163
How was the stove installed or vented?
in 19 years I have seen this type of thing and it is always from not being installed/vented correctly
and OR
USER ERROR. not cleaning the stove properly and or the stove not burning correctly and the user just keeps buring the stove.
and the combustion chambers and heat exchange gets plugged up and then the exhaust has to go somewhere so it just goes to the next place it can. the hopper.
I know this is not the same stove but here is some photos of a repair on a martin stove that the RENTER just kept burning the stove without sealing the hopper and had a burn back. she just kept using the stove even with the burned pellets in the hopper.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Oakhurst-CA/The-Stove-Doc/61927828163?v=photos#!/album.php?aid=143804&id=61927828163
Pellet-King
Minister of Fire
Thought only push style stoves could catch fire?, so your saying your Quad is a drop like Whitfield?, what heat settings you set it at when it caught fire?, i would never run my stove above a 2 out of 5 when i wasn't home, 3 it's get's pretty hot in the hopper area.
I have total confidence in my Whitfield it has burned non-stop nov- apr for now it's 11th season.
I have total confidence in my Whitfield it has burned non-stop nov- apr for now it's 11th season.
SmokeyTheBear
Minister of Fire
concerned pellet said:
Did you attempt to turn the stove off and it not respond or did you just pull the plug?
Okay, Okay I'll make the my next therapy group meeting on responsiblity issues, They say I'm making progress (trying for humor here). I will say that in the real world there are people that will feel they've always been given bad advice and the results make them victims. The neighbors house burned down right beside me in the middle of the night a year ago and they have eight kids, it scared the bejuses outta me. All made it out safely, I just didn't know that at the time though. I mean go down the list of safety certications required by the government and different underwriters organizations on all the heating equipment; electrical wiring; smoke/CO2 detectors and the building materials themselves and local building codes and inspections, now, how is this forum going to make him feel more safe. He is asking "how will I know this won't happen again". I cannot tell him that. You try to follow all the rules and use good judgement and bad things can still happen. bjr23
Thanks everyone for all of your help. I will post any further outcome as to what the problem was.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
It should probably be noted that wood stoves and pellet stoves are not as safe and reliable as most central heating systems......for a number of reasons, but mostly due to being space heaters and also lack of true mass production.
I know that is a blanket statement, but the fact is you are dealing with a technology (pellet stoves) which is fairly new and, unlike central heat, many tens of millions have not been installed. As we have also seen at times, the quality control can be lacking....in ANY brand for a certain run of stoves.
There is a certain amount of risk in any space heater, electric, wood, pellet, kerosene, etc.
Having multiple smoke detectors and CO detectors is dirt-cheap and provides an extra layer of protection.
On the plus side, I doubt that even this hopper fire would have caught the room on fire......which is a good thing......
I know that is a blanket statement, but the fact is you are dealing with a technology (pellet stoves) which is fairly new and, unlike central heat, many tens of millions have not been installed. As we have also seen at times, the quality control can be lacking....in ANY brand for a certain run of stoves.
There is a certain amount of risk in any space heater, electric, wood, pellet, kerosene, etc.
Having multiple smoke detectors and CO detectors is dirt-cheap and provides an extra layer of protection.
On the plus side, I doubt that even this hopper fire would have caught the room on fire......which is a good thing......
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