Need help with outside wood furance (Ban)

[n6crv]

Hello, I'm on our City Council and the City wants to ban outdoor wood boilers . We are a very small city 1300 and have one outdoor stove and it is right on the city limits. Well I'm not for a ban on burning wood but I have a problem. I want the one that is in the City grandfathered in. The others are not going for my views. Come to find out what they have is a forced air wood furnace add on. It is about 3 feet from the house in a shed . They are not meeting the 3/10/2 rule but said they would be happy to raise the chimney. That way it would be over the peak of the house. I can't see what diffrence it makes if the furnace is just outside of the house or in the basement. This is their only heat. Is there any info that you know of that can back me up. As I for one will NOT tell anyone they can't heat their house. Thanks for the help.
Don

 

[Chettt]

I'm kind of split on the issue of outdoor wood burners. On the one hand I feel banning them will make it easier to ban all woodstoves since all stoves emit more pollutants than a gas furnace. Like a ban on some firearms was the first step towards banning all firearms. On the other hand, OWB really do put out too much smoke and I would be upset living next door to one. Can the town afford to help pay for an internal stove and install for that one house?

 

[n6crv]

Hello Chett, I will agree on the outdoor boilers but this is a add on furnace. They could put it in the basement and all would be fine. Trouble is the height of the basement. So I'm not sure if this one should be under the ban. They have free wood and can't afford gas. I just think if they move the chimney up it should be fine. I need something to back me up for the city attorney.
Don

 

[begreen]

Moving to the boiler room. You might want to educate the council on gasifier wood boilers. Instead of banning, how about setting good emissions limits that will allow clean burning boilers yet keep dirty burning out of the city limits?

 

[JustWood]

I would think city council has no choice but to grandfather it because it was already installed before the ban was placed. If it was my stove the town was trying to ban I would agree to raising the chimney as high as was required but if the town wanted me to remove it I would get an out of state lawyer and the town would have a fight on their hands and I would win!! I don't think your town has any grounds to stand on unless neighbors are complaining.....

 

[atlarge54]

Are fireplaces banned in city limits? Most fireplaces provide zero net heat to a home. What about fireplace inserts? You might talk to the people at cozy heat for help. I live in Indiana and IDEM (state enviro agency) was working on OWB issues, haven't heard any new developments though. The information I saw a few years ago did say that burning wood is "carbon neutral". You might want to see where your state enviro agency is heading. Good luck

 

[n6crv]

Thanks for the replys. Yes fireplaces, wood stoves anything that is inside is fine. It can even be in a garage and it is ok. Just can't be in a outdoor shed or self contain. That is what is getting me on this one. Is is a furnace that is made to hook to your duct work. It is not one that heats water or is used all year long for hot water. Will keep you updated we meet with the City attorney next week.
Don

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Well, Eliot Spitzer was working on a ban for OWB, and now that he's retired and will be collecting a govt pension, he might be able to 'draft' a law for you.

He'll probably want to call it the "Kristen Rule"

 

[steam man]

We all want cleaner air and I wouldn't want to be a nuisance to my neighbors. That being said I think a blanket ban on OWB is not the way to address the problem. Inside or outside anything can be dirty. Setting emission limits should be the answer. Does the mentioned furnace actually have complaints? I find it hard to believe that a warm air system is anywhere near as dirty as a boiler of the same size if used properly. To me it is almost the same functionality as a fireplace or indoor wood stove. The stack height may be the big problem. It sounds like you would have to ban all wood burning to meet the techincalities of removing the one "in a building warm air furnace". I spoke up at a my town council meeting when they were going to place a ban on OWB. This was when the Black Bear boiler was just starting to be made locally. There was only one guy who had an OWB smoking monster in a tight residential setting. It was pretty stupid. It was hard to argue for the guy but his was the only means of heat he had. I think having the proper stack height with setbacks from neighbors along with possible seasonal operation would be workable. No wet wood burning and no garbage. If as councilor you suggested reimbursing or subsidizing the existing wood furnace owner (besides grandfathering him in) for a clean burning upgrade I would think the other councilors would choke on that and maybe moderate their positions.

I have been involved in some emission studies for the marine industry. I always maintained that why spend 90 the cost to reduce the last 10% of emissions in the US when we could just go overseas to any 3rd world city and buy everyone a set of piston rings for their worn out 2 cycle engined schooters. It would end up being a 10th the cost to reduce world emissions by 90%. We all breath the same air.

 

[Tony H]

You state the shed is 3 feet from the house what would it take to "connect" it to the house and make it legal.

 

[Johnny Ringo]

http://www.outdoorfurnacefacts.com/...r_Furnace_Facts_Local_Ordinance_July_2007.pdf

I think this may be what you are looking for. Hope it helps with your initial ????

 

[dogman]

There are many Model Ordinances that you can use to regulate or ban OWBs, depending on your area. The State of Michigan has a good one and the EPA has a new one that even incorporates the new Phase I and Phase II certifications.
The Michigan Ordinance gives you every option from leaving them alone to a complete ban.

http://www.deq.state.mi.us/documents/deq-ess-caap-modelordinance.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/owhh/what_epa_doing.htm

It is extremely important to note that the smoke from OWBs is FAR DIFFERENT in chemical compostiion to the smoke from a fireplace or indoor wood stove because of a nasty little culprit called PM 2.5 which the human body cannot process. Woodheat.org. a non-govermental non-profit that fights for our rights to burn wood for fuel and heat says this about OWBs:

We look forward to the day when outdoor boiler emissions are regulated so that manufacturers can compete on a level playing field, buyers can base their decisions on good information and we at woodheat.org can endorse the outdoor boiler as a responsible and environmentally appropriate way to heat with wood

Good luck. Love them or hate them, OWBs cause more neighbor wars than anything else on the planet.

 

[n6crv]

THANK-YOU Dogman, I have it copied and will send it to the City Manager to be forwarded to our City Attorney and the other Council Members. As of our last meeting it has been put off till our next meeting. Not sure what good that is going to do. At the planning meeting we were all thought the one that is in the City would be grandfathered. Will let you know what happens.
Don

 

[heaterman]

I'm a township clerk here in Michigan and I'm just waiting for the day someone shows up at a board meeting with an OWB complaint. There are dozens upon dozens of these in our little 36 sq mile jurisdiction. Three of my siblings have them plus a couple nephews. We have been studying the model ordinance ourselves and think we can modify it to our preference. It has a lot of options for you.

As far as your particular case is concerned, I think you'll find that you have to grandfather it. Besides, you'd be on mighty thin ice in a court of law trying to prove justification for taking away a guys only source of heat. That sounds like a lose, lose situation to me. My advice would be to NOT go there.

 

[dogman]

You're welcome Don. I have no horse in this race, just a reseacher. But I can tell you the entire state of Washington in the logging Northwest has banned OWBs and in Michigan Bangor, Grand Haven and others have banned them. Many more Michigan townships have regulated them. They cause far fewer complaints when the following regulations are in force:
1) setbacks of 500 feet minimum from the nearest non-users home
2) a stack height two feet taller than any neigboring homes highest roof peak within 500 feet
3) a burn stoppage from of April 15 to October 15
As far as granfathering, there is no case law that requires is at all. OWBs don't heat home - they are only fuel sources, they typically feed fuel to a regular furnace and hot water heater. So disabling them simply means adding a source such as a propane tank to replace the fuel source.
Hope that helps. I have a ton of research in binder form if you need more.
w

 

[dogman]

One more thing, with all due respect to the link Johnny Ringo provided. while I'm sure he is very well intended, that link takes you to a "model law" written by Central Boiler who is a manufacturer of some of the very OWBs that have been banned elsewhere. While it may be fine, the conflict raises a large research red flag. Best of luck in creating something fair for all.

 

[webbie]

Central Boiler is VERY self serving, so I would take any model that they wrote as absolutely nothing! They are the #1 polluter with these things and have the most to lose. If you want to be fair to all parties, don't let the offenders write the laws.

As to this case, there are a couple issues......in my opinion, of course!

1. Being the only source of heat is NOT an issue. If someone only had their lawn as their toilet, would you allow that to be an excuse? Of, if they wanted to feed their house domestic water from the storm sewer, is that ok if it is their only source? Sorry, this one does not hold water...or air.
If you want to be good in this way, take up a charity drive to install something else.

2. It sounds like it is not an OWB anyway, and if this is the case - if it is a regular wood furnace - then it should be treated as such. It probably has a manufacturers label and can be researched as to proper means of installation, chimney, etc.

If it is in an approved out building and installed properly, it should be OK. Of course, it is up to your local building and mechanical inspectors to determine if the ductwork transferring heat to the house is OK.

This sounds like a relatively easy case. As to areas where more OWB's exist, I think a phase out of existing units should be planned, with some in-between measures such as taller chimneys and burn education and no off-season burning. I have not thought it out, but a 5 year phase out for existing units without major complaints against them might seem reasonable. This would not work in cases where the things should not have been installed in the first place, were not permitted, etc.....you can't expect people in a neighborhood where places are close together to put up with this for 5 years.

 

[TMonter]

It is extremely important to note that the smoke from OWBs is FAR DIFFERENT in chemical compostiion to the smoke from a fireplace or indoor wood stove because of a nasty little culprit called PM 2.5 which the human body cannot process.

Actually it's not. Wood smoke is wood smoke.

The chemical in general composition and makeup for boiler smoke is identical to that of wood stove smoke provided the same wood is being burned. I have the source tests to prove this out.

 

[webbie]

Well, to get slightly more technical, the smoke from an OWB on idle (most run either on full or idle) is not equaled by any space heating stove on the market today or since about 1988. The air to fuel ratio is MUCH lower for a 8+ cubic foot OWB with cool interior walls, a short chimney and a mostly chocked off air supply.

But, yes, all things other than that being equal - if we had a gigantic indoor stove with cold firebox walls, a short chimney and a tiny air supply, the smoke would be similar. Last time I looked, there are not tens of thousands of that type of indoor appliance being sold.

 

[TMonter]

Not all OWB's smoke either.

Garns which have been around for a long time are at least as clean as wood stoves.

Just pointing out that you can't classify boiler versus wood stove smoke as different. What really matters is how the wood is burned.