New and in need of help.

[Billy Black]

This is my first post here. We just bought our first house here in Logan, Utah and are looking at our first winter. The house is a brick cottage from 1953 with average insulation and original windows. The upstairs is 1100 square feet with a full unfinished basement (which will remain unheated this year). We have oil radiators for the two bedrooms which take up about 400 sq. ft. which we could turn off when not in use leaving about 700 square feet that we would like to heat separately. There is a heatform fireplace made by superior in the living room that has a brick chimney. The hearth for the fireplace only sticks out 18" in front of the mantle and is made from an asbestos mat set into the hardwood with tile on top of that. We want to install a wood stove in the existing chimney. The fireplace opening is 24" high. The first thing we looked into was the jotul f100 nordic qt as it is the only stove that would fit into the fireplace without having to extend the hearth but reading more it seems like some people seem to be disappointed with this stove when the conditions are less then perfect. When we talked to both of our local dealers they both basically said that for installation we could just stick the pipe up by our existing damper and, if we wanted, we could pack some insullation around it and or put a metal shield up around the pipe. Does this sound right to everyone? Another factor is that I would like to avoid making the fireplace unusable for future owners but am willing to do this if it is necessary. Also, I would like to avoid permanently altering the hearth at this point but wouldn't mind putting down some sort of temporary hearth pad over the top that extended out onto the hardwood. So what I am wondering is this:

What is a good way to adapt the existing fireplace possibly with out permanently rendering it unusable as a fireplace?

What is a good stove for this of application? (I've been looking at the morso convection stoves and think they seem pretty nice, also the F602). It would be nice to have a pretty view but not necessary.

As it seems that any stove except the f100 will require that I put it in front of the mantle, what is a good way to extend (temporarily?) the hearth out over the hardwood with out having to cut back the wood or disturb the asbestos pad? Maybe a removable pad made of cement board and brick?

I have been trying to gather information on my own but it is proving a little frustrating and I'm not sure my local dealer is giving me the best advice. I would like my setup to be as efficient as possible but don't have a fortune to spend. Please help!

I have attached pictures of the mantle and the inside of the fireplace, looking up into the damper.

 

[webbie]

This is a "heatform" fireplace with those pesky tubes embedded in the steel. In my opinion, this is an "in the field" type of job where you have two choices:

1. Cut the tubes out so the chimney can be partially or fully lined.
2. Run the pipe up through a very well sealed metal block off plate - see the article on our information pages about how to make a tight fitting block off plate.

Do not use insulation or anything funky to seal the plate!

Now, I'm certain that some will take me to task because #2 does not mean the strict letter of the code - the pipe must extend up the chimney. BUT, removing the tubes is probably against code also, so I am simply saying that if it were my fireplace, I would first try to do it with as little modification as possible

Even the local building official may understand this...

I did a number of installations like this way back when before direct connections were mandated, and they did work well.

The morsos are nice if you can fit them - also, a small insert which fits partway back in - like a small Regency, Avalon, PE, etc. might do the job and avoid some of the hearth and mantle protection issues.

I would inform you as to the letter of the code - sawing out one tube - BUT, I am really worried that would render the fireplace dangerous if it was converted back someday....and, the person may not even know that! For this reason, it is a tough one.

Maybe some dealers and installers here will chirp in and say what they actually do with these fireplaces.

 

[MrGriz]

Hi Billy and welcome. IMO, I would not worry about rendering the fireplace unusable for a future owner. I would actually say that by properly installing a stove or insert, you are enhancing the usefulness and performance of the fireplace. I thought about this when I installed my insert and came to the conclusion that since I would leave the insert behind if I ever move, it was a bonus. My insert came with a metal plate to attach to the firebox of the original fireplace stating that it had been altered and may not be safe to use in its present condition.

You're right to question your stove dealers advice on the blockoff also. As Craig said, take a look at the article in the information section on how to construct a blockoff plate. It's not very difficult, just putsy, but I think it's a must for a good safe installation. I would also recommend fully lining the chimney. It will make cleaning much easier and in my opinion is a safer way to go. Depending on your set up, it will almost certainly draft better as well.

Good luck and keep the questions coming, more will be along to help.

 

[Billy Black]

Thanks a ton for the prompt replies and the good advice! I think I am coming closer to a decision. I think that I am going to go ahead and line the chimney. I also think I am going to forget about keeping the fireplace in tact and cut a hole right into the sloping part of the firebox and seal the damper shut per zzr7ky's description here: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/9149/

I am also pretty much sold on the morso 1440 as the clearances are tight and it seems safe (especially with a busy 3 year old boy around) and efficient. I would also be able to extend the hearth out with out cutting back the hardwood floor.

My only concern is that the center of the rear venting hole (23.8") is only .3 inches below the top of my fireplace opening (24" high). Is there a way to make this work? I would like to possibly keep the rear clearance to 6" out from the mantle which, as far as I understand, requires a connector shield or a double wall connector. I'm not even sure I understand what those things are but the 6" clearance would be nice for aesthetic/space reasons. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[wg_bent]

so you're installing a stove into a fireplace? Why not use an insert for this? Like a Lopi Revere etc...? I'm not anti- Morso, but seems like your situation calls for an insert.

 

[Todd]

My only concern is that the center of the rear venting hole (23.8") is only .3 inches below the top of my fireplace opening (24" high). Is there a way to make this work? I would like to possibly keep the rear clearance to 6" out from the mantle which, as far as I understand, requires a connector shield or a double wall connector. I'm not even sure I understand what those things are but the 6" clearance would be nice for aesthetic/space reasons. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I don't think that stove will work if the rear vent collar is taller than the fireplace opening. You need the horizontal exhaust pipe horizontal or a slight rise, it can't go down, around and up the flue, it would just smoke and have lousy draft. Maybe they have a short leg kit or look for another stove or insert. Good luck.

 

[Gooserider]

I would agree with Warren's post - My feeling is that if you want something inside the fireplace, you are better off with an insert, which is designed to circulate air around it and extract the heat out of the fireplace structure. While a free-standing woodstove may put out more heat, if you put it in the fireplace you wll expend most of the heat in warming the masonry instead of your living space. (However stoves are excellent if installed in front of a fireplace, preferably with the fireplace opening mostly blocked off)

Also remember that your flue pipe has to be vertical, horizontal with at least 1/4" rise per foot, or something in between. It MAY NOT ever go down! Thus if you are going to vent into the fireplace opening, the stove outlet must be lower than the top of the opening. (and note that you will be much happier installing the unit if you have a few inches extra space to work in...)

Gooserider

 

[Billy Black]

Thanks again for all of the replies. I really appreciate all of your time and effort. It's a big load off my mind knowing there are such knowledgeable and helpful people here. I think I will probably go with the morso 3142. The center of the rear vent collar is 14.5" high which would work and the stove is probably a better size for our house. My wife and I also really like the looks of it. I would be extending the hearth and putting it in front of the fireplace. I am going to start calling for prices on the stove and the liner in the morning. Am I right in understanding that these stoves don't need an insulated hearth just as long as it is made of non-combustible material?

 

[Gooserider]

Am I right in understanding that these stoves don't need an insulated hearth just as long as it is made of non-combustible material?

That depends on what the manual for the stove says - most of us don't try to memorize the manuals for the stoves we don't own :lol: However if you go to the manufacturer's website, most put the manuals online as PDF's

If the manual lists an R-value, or specifies some thickness of material "or equivalent" then that is the minimum insulation value that you would be required to have.

If the manual specifies ONLY that the hearth must be non-combustible, then you don't need insulation, only something that offers an uninterupted surface that won't burn.

Gooserider