New Burner Questions & City Dwelling Burners?

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Sep 27, 2010
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Ontario
I was just interested in hearing some comments from city dwelling wood burners, as many on this forum seem to either be near a city or in more rural parts, but not in a metro area.

I am installing a new 2010 Napolean EPA Insert into my 60 year old masonry fireplace. I live in a mid-size city, 200k people in a pretty populated area (500k) and a fairly un-wooded county(mostly farming).

I have seen crazy craigs-listers selling their trees in the area, and have already called most Tree Service/Wood Suppliers in the area. Most of the Wood suppliers in the area will deliver a full 4 x 4 x 8 cord of wood, dried, and split for around $200.

I know most posters on here say wood suppliers do not supply properly seasoned wood and i guess I will find out this winter, in which case I guess I will buy again in spring and season for next year. My main problem is the size of my property limits me to storing only 1 full cord and 1 face cord, unless I want to bury my entire small backyard in wood.

Questions:

1) A wood rack by the fireplace, decorative or functional? How much should be on hand at the fireplace?

2) How long does wood need to get to room temperature if you bring it in out of the cold? (knowing you should burn it at room temp)

3) Wife hates bugs, should I store wood in my basement to burn at room temp, or will there be too many bugs?

4) Using the insert to space heat the main floor and cut down on Nat Gas usage, how much or little should I be burning, as in how many hours a day?

5) Can you build a fire and leave it throughout the day? if its properly built, in a sealed door insert? Can it be built up and left to low burn overnight?

I have been perusing the forum but this might be quicker to find my answers.

Thanks in Advance for your help.
City Dwelling Burner that wants that country rural feel.
 
I think that other than outdoor space for wood storage the answers to your questions would be similar to other areas....see comments below


MapleLeafCityBurner said:
I was just interested in hearing some comments from city dwelling wood burners, as many on this forum seem to either be near a city or in more rural parts, but not in a metro area.

I am installing a new 2010 Napolean EPA Insert into my 60 year old masonry fireplace. I live in a mid-size city, 200k people in a pretty populated area (500k) and a fairly un-wooded county(mostly farming).

I have seen crazy craigs-listers selling their trees in the area, and have already called most Tree Service/Wood Suppliers in the area. Most of the Wood suppliers in the area will deliver a full 4 x 4 x 8 cord of wood, dried, and split for around $200.

I know most posters on here say wood suppliers do not supply properly seasoned wood and i guess I will find out this winter, in which case I guess I will buy again in spring and season for next year. My main problem is the size of my property limits me to storing only 1 full cord and 1 face cord, unless I want to bury my entire small backyard in wood.

Questions:

1) A wood rack by the fireplace, decorative or functional? How much should be on hand at the fireplace?
I think you can accomplish both decorative and functional...you choice. How much - I keep 1 days worth there

2) How long does wood need to get to room temperature if you bring it in out of the cold? (knowing you should burn it at room temp)
I have never really worried about getting the wood to room temp. I keep about a days worth inside and reload the storage after I load up the fire place. Warms plenty by the next reload time.

3) Wife hates bugs, should I store wood in my basement to burn at room temp, or will there be too many bugs?
Different opinions on this. Personally, I dont want to store wood inside at room temps as any bugs will become active. Not worth the risk to me.

4) Using the insert to space heat the main floor and cut down on Nat Gas usage, how much or little should I be burning, as in how many hours a day?
The more you burn wood the less gas you will use.... and the more wood you will use. Your choice.... I say burn wood as much as you can and your supply holds out.

5) Can you build a fire and leave it throughout the day? if its properly built, in a sealed door insert? Can it be built up and left to low burn overnight?
YES

I have been perusing the forum but this might be quicker to find my answers.

Thanks in Advance for your help.
City Dwelling Burner that wants that country rural feel.
 
MapleLeafCityBurner said:
I was just interested in hearing some comments from city dwelling wood burners, as many on this forum seem to either be near a city or in more rural parts, but not in a metro area.

I am installing a new 2010 Napolean EPA Insert into my 60 year old masonry fireplace. I live in a mid-size city, 200k people in a pretty populated area (500k) and a fairly un-wooded county(mostly farming).

I have seen crazy craigs-listers selling their trees in the area, and have already called most Tree Service/Wood Suppliers in the area. Most of the Wood suppliers in the area will deliver a full 4 x 4 x 8 cord of wood, dried, and split for around $200.

I know most posters on here say wood suppliers do not supply properly seasoned wood and i guess I will find out this winter, in which case I guess I will buy again in spring and season for next year. My main problem is the size of my property limits me to storing only 1 full cord and 1 face cord, unless I want to bury my entire small backyard in wood. Are you sure about this? I bet you can find room for quite a bit more than that. One cord does not take up much room and if you can only fit one cord at a time on your place then you should probably reconsider your commitment to heating with wood

Questions:

1) A wood rack by the fireplace, decorative or functional? How much should be on hand at the fireplace? This is entirely subjective. I have about a week's worth inside my indoor rack.

2) How long does wood need to get to room temperature if you bring it in out of the cold? (knowing you should burn it at room temp) Bring wood up to room temp before burning it? I've never heard anything like this in my life.

3) Wife hates bugs, should I store wood in my basement to burn at room temp, or will there be too many bugs? Again, I wouldn't worry about warming up the wood before you burn it.

4) Using the insert to space heat the main floor and cut down on Nat Gas usage, how much or little should I be burning, as in how many hours a day? This also is entirely up to you. I do not pay for firewood so I burn as much as I have to to stay warm.

5) Can you build a fire and leave it throughout the day? Yes If its properly built, in a sealed door insert? Yes Can it be built up and left to low burn overnight? Yes

I have been perusing the forum but this might be quicker to find my answers.

Thanks in Advance for your help.
City Dwelling Burner that wants that country rural feel.
 
With regards to wood storage, you can probably get a lot more in your yard than you think, without it being an eyesore, if you build a woodshed (it can be simple). I live within 10km of the downtown center of a medium to large city (pop close to 1M) but still manage to store 4-5 cords in my woodshed without offending my wife's esthetic sense... One cord isn't very much wood, though, so if that's all you have to play with you won't have to worry about burning overnight (since it won't last you the winter).

I burn for pretty much the same reason as you - and in my insert, I burn 2-3 full cords /year for 50-65% savings in gas usage in the first year. Not sure what savings you might get (depends on many factors).
 
I can obviously fit more in my backyard than 1.33 cords, its just what I am planning on storing at this point. My entire house lot is only 42 x 90. Backyard is 30 x 40. This includes a 35 x 12 deck, 4 x 8 garden shed, 4 x 8 wood shed, 3 x 6 bbq pad, 70 year old sugar maple with an 8ft diamter trunk, children's swing/slide set.

From my reading on here, I may start scrounging to save even more money and then I may end up stacking wood along my fences which would give me another 30 linear feet of stacking space(1-1.5 cords approx), but that'll depend on the wife's objection to its aestethics. :p

My brother has been wood burning for 3 seasons and goes through 2.5 cords a winter, burning 16 hours/day. We are in one of the mildest parts of canada and our winters are only generally late december to late march, with a shoulder season of October-April. If I have it delivered split and dried, restacking during the winter may not be fun, but may be what I have to contend with.

60-70% savings is great, I was estimating in the 50% range. Bringing wood to temperature before burning was something I read in a forum, maybe not this one, but it dealt with efficiency. If its cold, it takes that little bit of extra energy to burn the log, making it a little bit more inefficient than burning a room temperature log. Scientific proof was not supplied. ;P Would be nice to know.

I built a face cord shed at my side door, so I probably will only be storing a days worth inside and pulling from that shed when needed.

Thanks for the input.
 
I also live in the city. You can find places for wood. Stacking taller makes a ton of difference. I have a stack that is nearly 10 ft tall. Stack well and brace it on occasion. I must make compromises though. I stack wood right against my house which I dont like. I worry about bugs eating my house. Also, its not like I get to stack in single rows in the sun and wind. Seasoning times get hurt because of that but its better than nothing.

How much wood will you burn? With your space restrictions, my answer will be "all of it".

The whole thing about bringing it up to room temp seems weird. Say the inside of your stove is 1,000 degrees. The difference between a 30 degree peice from outside and one that is 60 at room temp is only 3%. Dont worry about it. It will burn just fine either way.
 
30 foot fence. 6 feet high. two rows deep. that is 4.5 cords right there. Plus your woodshed. and a few other little squirreled away places and you are to nearly 6 cords.
 
MapleLeafCityBurner said:
I was just interested in hearing some comments from city dwelling wood burners, as many on this forum seem to either be near a city or in more rural parts, but not in a metro area.

I am installing a new 2010 Napolean EPA Insert into my 60 year old masonry fireplace. I live in a mid-size city, 200k people in a pretty populated area (500k) and a fairly un-wooded county(mostly farming).

I have seen crazy craigs-listers selling their trees in the area, and have already called most Tree Service/Wood Suppliers in the area. Most of the Wood suppliers in the area will deliver a full 4 x 4 x 8 cord of wood, dried, and split for around $200.

I know most posters on here say wood suppliers do not supply properly seasoned wood and i guess I will find out this winter, in which case I guess I will buy again in spring and season for next year. My main problem is the size of my property limits me to storing only 1 full cord and 1 face cord, unless I want to bury my entire small backyard in wood.

Questions:

1) A wood rack by the fireplace, decorative or functional? How much should be on hand at the fireplace?

2) How long does wood need to get to room temperature if you bring it in out of the cold? (knowing you should burn it at room temp)

3) Wife hates bugs, should I store wood in my basement to burn at room temp, or will there be too many bugs?

4) Using the insert to space heat the main floor and cut down on Nat Gas usage, how much or little should I be burning, as in how many hours a day?

5) Can you build a fire and leave it throughout the day? if its properly built, in a sealed door insert? Can it be built up and left to low burn overnight?

I have been perusing the forum but this might be quicker to find my answers.

Thanks in Advance for your help.
City Dwelling Burner that wants that country rural feel.


Welcome to the forum MapleLeafCityBurner. Hopefully you will get much help from lots of folks here.


The $200 per cord is probably about right for your area. Every area can vary a lot. One could buy a cord around our area for a little over $100. I've seen a cord also sell for over $300. You are correct about the seasoning of the wood. Most wood sellers really do not have good dry seasoned wood.

Please let me caution you. If I were buying wood for next year, I'd be buying it right now and not waiting for next spring. One reason is that you have not specified what type of wood this is. It takes different periods of time for each type of wood to dry properly. For example, put a white ash and a red oak side by side and although there is not a great difference in the amount of btu's in these 2 types of wood, the red oak wants about 3 years to properly dry (after being cut, split and stacked out in the wind) while the white ash is happy with a year.

Naturally, drying wood is something you need to be aware of. Time and wind are your friends when it comes to drying wood. Sun is nice but wind is more important. It needs space for air to circulate. Firewood also hates to be covered totally. Covering the top is fine but never the sides of the piles. If time is short, stack in single rows and never on the ground. Use a landscape timber or something similar to stack the wood on; just so the wood does not touch the ground. But one of your problems is space. So you will have to stack the wood fairly high and utilize the space as good as possible.

A wood rack by the fireplace can look nice and be handy. However, it also can be dirty and the wood very well might contain some insects that are not welcome in the home. Moths seem to be our #1 problem if we bring wood in ahead of time. Therefore we will bring in just enough wood at night so that we don't have to open the outside door to get more. We just lay the wood on the hearth (we have a large hearth) and then in the morning it is handy.

Wood does not have to be at room temperature ever. Most times we just go out onto the porch and grab whatever is needed and stick it into the stove. Don't let anyone try to convince you that it needs to be at room temperature because it does not.

Wife hates bugs. That is a good enough reason to store all of your wood outdoors; not in basement, not in garage; not on hearth. Just bring in what you need when you need it. Clean up any dust or bark after you put the wood in and wife will be happy.

How long should you be burning? As long as you want or is possible. Our only source of heat is our beautiful wood stove. Yes, that is 100% of our heat and we get along just fine. There is no reason not to keep that insert burning wood as long as you can be feeding it the proper fuel.

It is perfectly safe to leave that stove burning once you have the draft properly set. Remember that you want the draft full open when reloading or starting a fire. After the wood is charred good then you start dialing down the draft. You will have to experiment as to how low or high to set the draft but once the fire is established the draft is usually shut down quite a bit. Not closed, but maybe 1/4 open, give or take. Experiment. Weekends are a great time to learn the stove.



You are to be commended for asking those questions. Hopefully they have been answered to your satisfaction. If not or if you have more questions, please do not hesitate to ask more.

Good luck to you.
 
MapleLeafCityBurner said:
60-70% savings is great, I was estimating in the 50% range.

Depending on your setup / wood moisture content, you might want to estimate lower rather than higher savings. I was getting 66% savings when I was trying to burn 24/7 as much as possible (I work away from the home during the day so there are limits on that). I have since relaxed a bit and don't mind having the central heating come on more often. I also have a one level house (+ basement) that is relatively open and easy to heat so that helps. It's hard to really know what kind of savings you will achieve until you do it...
 
A couple clarifications....

Most of the wood for sale around here is 80% Ash, because of the infestations of the ash borer beetles, there usually is 10-20% other hardwood species mixed in.

Also, my rear fence is 6 foot, but my two neighbour side fences are only 4 ft and stacking wood over the 4 ft height of the fence Im sure would cause some unpleasant relations, I'd rather avoid. We're planning a full 6-7 ft privacy fence in the future, but until then, I'm still hampered in my storage. 20 of the 30 linear feet mentioned would only be able to be single stacks, while another 10 feet could be double rows.

My fireplace insert arrives in about 1 month and I am looking for a venting kit, I am told is available at home depot. It has to be a 6" insulated flue with cap and flex adjustor. If there are any other options I would love to hear them?

For winter storage of dried/seasoned wood, closed shed better than open to air?
 
That is good that it is ash. A quick drying wood for sure.

On the 4' fence, you might be interested that we stack our wood at 4 1/2 foot. In a few months that has reduced to 4' because of the drying.
 
Right now I have about 9 cords on my 1/4 acre (100' X 100') suburban lot. I also have a 16 X 32 deck, an 18 x 18 "barn", and an 8 X10 shed. My wood is in two stacks, both 4' deep X about 5' tall. One is about 27' long, the other is about 38' long. It can be done on a small lot.

This is the longer one last year. It is a little taller now.
DSC05874.jpg
 
Maybe I missed this point in a previous response, but there is no need for wood to be at room temperature for burning. It will go from below freezing to burning temperature in a very short time if you add it to a hot fire! I guess wood stored indoors at room temperature is better for starting a fire than wood stored outdoors at freezing temperature, but that is probably more due to the dry indoor air than the temperature.

I think it is convenient to have some wood storage indoors so that you don't have to go outside every time you need to add wood to the fire. At a minimum, you'd like to have several full stove's worth of fuel indoors so that you can last through a long evening without going back outside for more. Anything beyond that is nice, but not necessary, in my opinion. Even wet, snowy wood can be burned once you have a fire going.
 
Welcome to the forum MLCB.

As I read one of your replies to the suggestions and questions I am wondering about two spots for your storage.

How high off of the ground is your deck? If it is high enough to get wood under it without wrecking your back you could store a pile of wood under a deck the size of yours.

As well, do you have a driveway? If you search around the site for "woodsheds" you will find a couple of nifty narrow wood storage sheds that are designed to appear as part of a fence along a driveway.
 
I wish I could say those are good suggestions for my situation, but alas they are not.

Deck is ground level, no space visible, 2x6's touch the ground. I do have a decent driveway, but its single-wide. After 2 cars in the drive there is only enough room for the garbage shed and the new face cord shed I just finished building.

There is a decent space on the other side of the house, say 4'x20', but it abutts the neighbours driveway and is on the other side of the house, and is open to the street. So if push comes to shove, I could stack wood there, but I am worried about not encroaching on the neighbour and who knows what by-law there is against it, and about having that much wood open to the street for anyone to view and possibly take. Not sure there'd be a huge problem with wood theft, especially in my neighbourhood as it is a decent middle-upper class hood, but teenage vandals run the gamut anywhere.

This winter will be a good test. If I can get through with reloading from the supplier with not too much trouble, I may stay with my 1.33 cord storage as is. If its not enough, too much trouble to stack mid-winter and the more likely that the wood is simply not dry/seasoned enough, then I will look at expanding my storage to 2.5 cords. Even if I have to crowd the kids play area.

I wonder what this neighbourhood did when it was built, 60 years ago, as all the houses have old masonry fireplaces. Well I can guess. The backyard was mainly empty when I bought the house off the original owner 9 years ago, so wood storage wouldn't have been a problem. No decks, sheds or anything else to deal with.
 
One option for storage is to create a Holtz Hauzen (wood house in german). You can store up to 5 cords in a 10X10 space and in my opinion they are a work of art. Your neighbors will most likely be interested and never stop talking about them because they probably never saw one. At my house I have almost 17 cords now and while my rows are nice, they never attract the positvie attention that my Holz Hausens get (not sure if there is a Z or an S).

Second pic is after 1 year, mostly cherry. Ash would season nicely too.

A more likely scenario is a 4 pallet HH which stores 2 and 1/2 cord.
 

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A second to the Holz Hausen method for compact, aesthetic storage. I recently finished one & my neighbors on both sides have told me they really like it. In fact everyone that's seen it so far has commended me. If you can find 8 or 10 square feet anywhere in your yard, you can store at least 2 cord in a smallish HH. For speed of drying my opinion is that single rows are the best, but alas, we do what we can in the City. Have no doubt, if you find the free wood, you'll find the space to put it ;-)
FWIW I've scrounged nearly 2 years worth this year & it's all been from either friends/neighbours wanting rid of downed stuff or just asking when I see a pile by the curb. Tree services around here are all in the firewood business.
 
GolfandWoodNut said:
One option for storage is to create a Holtz Hauzen (wood house in german). You can store up to 5 cords in a 10X10 space and in my opinion they are a work of art. Your neighbors will most likely be interested and never stop talking about them because they probably never saw one. At my house I have almost 17 cords now and while my rows are nice, they never attract the positvie attention that my Holz Hausens get (not sure if there is a Z or an S).

Second pic is after 1 year, mostly cherry. Ash would season nicely too.

A more likely scenario is a 4 pallet HH which stores 2 and 1/2 cord.

Just a minor point . . . it seems as though the correct German term is actually holz miete . . . but most folks around here call them holtz hauzen (or hausen).

http://www.holzmiete.de/anleitung.php

For the record . . . GolfandWoodNut does have a good suggestion -- they store a lot of wood in a tight footprint and are pretty neat and interesting to see.
 
Every time I hear discussion of the Holtz Hauzen (or meite!) providing ability to store more wood on a foot print I wonder how that could be. I TOTALLY agree about the look being nice and it is a conversation point. Just get stuck on the math of this.... compared to just stacking in a "box" shape.

using 4 pallets in a rectangle configuration. If I stack with a HH (circle) only at 4 points will I hit the outer edge of the pallets, thus not using space in the corners. I can stack just as high, if not higher on a rectangle shape vs. a circle shape.

Again, its cool looking which may help you with the neighbors but I dont see it as providing the ability to stack more on a footprint. (unless i am totally missing a basic point - if so, someone pls explain it!!!)
 
Got Wood, after writing below I realized that you do build HHs so you probably know most of what I wrote below...

Got Wood, what you are missing is the heigth of the HH. On a normal pallet stack it is not recommended to go over 4 feet, although some people go up to 6 with varying success. WIth a HH you can go as high as 10 feet, although I probably only go 8 feet. If properly built, with the outside wood sloping inwards, in creates tremendous strength and the only way it can fall is in upon itself, therefore it does not fall. Poorly constructed ones will lean outwards, as do stacks, and that is where you get the problem. You can also get foot holds on the side as it gets tall that allow you to climb up, like a ladder, to reach the top. I would not try that on a 4 pallet stack. You place occasional horizontal splits along the outside edge, to make sure the wood slopes inwards. Anytime I find the wood approaching level, I put in a cross piece at the outer side.

I am 6'2" and notice how I am dwarfed by the HH.
 
Friendly discussion.... yes, I have built one. With the one I built, I put it on the same pallets I had previously stacked a rectangle shape with no "roof" - ended up with the same sq footage as the HH.

For arguements sake, I could apply the same building idea to a rectangle as I can a circle shaped stack. Meaning, I could built up the outer rows with the same supporting ideas, then when the "roof" is built apply the same building up concept as a circle form. I dont see why I couldnt make a rectangle shape to the same height as a circle shape.

Now maybe that would also be considered a HH? Couldnt argue that.
 
Don't get me wrong, I know I can store probably 3-4 cords of wood on my property, but I do not want it to be an eyesore, or to take that much away from an already small yard. Also, I literally do not have space for a 10x10 area anywhere on my property except maybe in the middle of my front yard. That would definitely scare the neighbours. :p

I think I will find after this winter that I will need at least 2.5 cords, stored before the snow flies, but for the first winter Im going to try storing just the 1.33 I have space for now and see how it goes.

Anyone have experience getting wood mid-winter? It will already be split, just need stacking and splitting for kindling.
 
Maple, getting good wood during the winter months can indeed be difficult. More than likely if you find someone who will deliver, it will be more than likely freshly cut or at least cut for a few months but then split just before delivery. That makes for some very poor fuel. That is why most folks will get a couple years ahead on their wood supply. Furthermore, if you can get a couple years ahead on wood you will find that it will not take as much wood to give the same amount of heat and the fire will be much easier. With poor wood one has to have more draft to burn the wood and push all that smoke out of the chimney. With poor wood it is harder to get the wood to even light for a decent fire. Once you try good dry wood you will never go back to the old ways.

If you do not have the space perhaps you can do like some; rent some space from someone and store your wood there. Bring home maybe a face cord at a time. That way you could have enough wood on hand to properly dry it.

Good fuel = good fires
Poor fuel = unhappy wood burners

It is sort of like your car. Burn good fuel and the car will serve you well. Put some poor fuel in that car and you get poor results.
 
Okay, we're ll pushing you to store more wood for longer, but since that's not what you're looking for....
I managed to find a local guy who can delivery quite dry oak (claimed 3-year seasoned) in late winter and charges a premium for it. The place he stores it is inaccessible until ground is well frozen, so it's not available 'till well after the holidays. I bought a face-cord from him last Feb & it was the driest wood I bought (air closed down & secondaries flaring away). I found him by talking to other local woodburners. My advice is start asking around for a sources of dry wood, only listen to folks who've actually burned the wood for heating and consider what they're burning it in. Tell the supplier you're looking for a source of well-seasoned wood to heat your home (ie. repeat customer) & were referred by Whoever (possible discount). Explain that your stove requires very dry wood. All that may get you the driest wood s/he has. Maybe it's ready to burn, maybe not.
Lots of people around here only want Oak to burn & think it's far superior all other wood. I told my suppliers I prefer other hardwoods as they dry faster.
 
If your yard is that small it is starting to sound like a pellet stove may have been a better idea.
 
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