New Construction-How to build the perfect system

[jhunter19]

I am in the final archectural stages of designing my new home. I hope to start building in April. I will be building a 2000 ft2 ranch with a full finished 2000 ft2 basement. I want to put in wood burning system (probably dual fuel) and run radient infloor heating throughout. This house will have 3 bedrooms up and 2 bedrooms down. There will also be full plumbing in the basement. There will be a large utility room in the basement.

The question is, if you were going to build the ideal system, what attributes would you include? What would be your suggested brands and why? If you happen to know approximate costs, please share.

Some of my particulars:
Probably want gassification system
Expect in-concrete floor heating in basement (2-3 zones)
I have 30 acres of woods at my disposal
I have room for an indoor unit
Current blueprints show door from outside into garage and then directly into utility room in basement.
Plenty of room for water storage
Propane available but not natural gas

Please share with me your best ideas.

 

[ewdudley]

Here's a thread that should be relevant:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/50648/

 

[muleman51]

No. 1 Put the boiler outside in its own building, smoke, ash, bark does not make for happy a happy wife. No. 2 Ideally put storage in house that way all lost heat from storage would be used in house. That is what I would do if I had the options. Good Luck

 

[dswitham]

No. 1 Put the boiler outside in its own building, smoke, ash, bark does not make for happy a happy wife.

I always have to smile when I see people talking about putting the boiler in an outbuilding to please their wives/ girlfriends. Since I don't let my husband stoke the boiler, as he tends to mess it up somehow every time, I wouldn't want to have to go outside to go stoke the boiler. Especially as we don't have storage yet and I have to stoke it in the middle of the night. But if you have room for storage inside and don't want the mess inside that would be a lot better.

I would definitely go with a gassification boiler. We just retired a 30 yr old Tarm and now have a new Biomass 80 boiler. It is a lot nicer and I go through less wood even though I am heating more space. You might also consider ways to use the boiler to heat your domestic water. I know a lot of people on the forum do that and it is in our plans for the future when we add storage. Hopefully that will happen this month.

I haven't burned my new boiler long enough to give you an opinion that would count for much, but so far so good. I do know that we looked seriously at the garn boilers, but just didn't have the money or a really good place to put it. Also we had to replace our boiler in the middle of the winter, not a great time to build a building for the garn. I know when I was looking over the forum trying to decide which one to get I found a lot of different opinions. Sometimes I think it just comes down to what you have to spend. That was one of the deciding factors for us.

I would keep in mind and plan on budgeting for a nice control system for controlling everything. Right now we can't afford one, so we just use some really basic controls to run everything. Thankfully we don't have a complicated system. But on my wish list is a nicer control system so that I can better see what is going on with our system. It isn't really necessary, but if you get bitten by the want to tinker with the system bug it would be nice.

I definitely vote for the radiant heat, as we really enjoy ours and it would allow you to run your storage down lower before you to charge it back up again.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

I am in the final archectural stages of designing my new home. I hope to start building in April. I will be building a 2000 ft2 ranch with a full finished 2000 ft2 basement. I want to put in wood burning system (probably dual fuel) and run radient infloor heating throughout. This house will have 3 bedrooms up and 2 bedrooms down. There will also be full plumbing in the basement. There will be a large utility room in the basement.

The question is, if you were going to build the ideal system, what attributes would you include? What would be your suggested brands and why? If you happen to know approximate costs, please share.

Some of my particulars:
Probably want gassification system
Expect in-concrete floor heating in basement (2-3 zones)
I have 30 acres of woods at my disposal
I have room for an indoor unit
Current blueprints show door from outside into garage and then directly into utility room in basement.
Plenty of room for water storage
Propane available but not natural gas

Please share with me your best ideas.

Welcome to Hearth, If I were building a new home & wanted the easiest to use indoor boiler I would put in a Froling Turbo. If you look at the Youtube video you will see why I say this. Garn is a great outdoors boiler & one you might want to consider. The Froling continually adjusts everything with it's sophisticated computor & as one poster mentioned in the past, on new construction you can add this into the loan & it isn't as difficult to pay off this way. There are lots of good boilers, Wood Gun, Econoburn, EKO, Atmos, Tarm etc. I like boilers in the basement for convenience & less heat loss. I would use a gasification boiler because of the clean burning & almost no risk of a chimney fire. The only boiler that is relativly cheap is the Atmos at about $3500.00. The Froling is about $10,000 & the Garn about $14,000 the others vary. These boilers will pay for themselves in spite of the install cost. Randy

 

[WoodNotOil]

Couple of things come to mind and I will keep it brief.

1. No mulit-fuel boilers. Put in a gasser with an on demand oil or propane as backup.
2. Size boiler and storage so that one firebox load of wood will store enough heat for entire day.
3. Smoke issue can be solved with a unit like the Biomass that has a built in draft inducer or by installing a draft inducer on other gassers.
4. Put bioler and storage in its own room in the basement that has a its own exterior door for wood accessibility. (Burried lines, another structure, and going outside to do the fire don't personally appeal to me, but I understand the wife factor... mine likes the smell of wood smoke!)
5. Radiant in the basement slab that is fully insulated underneath and around the sides. Radiant upstairs as well.
6. Insulate, insulate, insulate

As for biolers, I would locate a dealer or installer in your area and work through them on brands, storage, and design. That way you have someone to maintain the system. If you're a DIY kind of person, then recycled propane tanks for storage etc... You are probably not far from Econoburn and should check their product out. I am sure I could come up with more if I had the time...

 

[dogwood]

Jhunter, I constructed my own home about twenty years ago with energy efficiency in mind. I've had a lot of time to think about how I could have done things better or differently, if I could do them over again. The dramatic rise in energy costs fuels these thoughts.

If I were you, I would concentrate on super-insulating. It's at least half the battle or more to minimizing energy expenditure. If you're unfamiliar with the methods of doing this, you need to make sure all the constuction details that guarantee airtightness using vapor barriors are put into place, and insulation is maximized. Insulating is way more than stuffing the pink stuff between studs and joists. I would use SIPs, Structural Insulated Panels, for the exterior walls to maximize insulation and reduce cold being transferred through the wall's studs. I would spray foam insulation everywhere else. You can cut your energy costs down dramatically from the outset. Get a book out and read up. Insulate your foundation and slab too.

There are a lot of details to get your insulating right. Post-construction super-insulating is difficult if not impossible in many respects. You're in just the right place in planning to make this possible. Take advantage. When I moved into my 2000 sq ft. home my entire energy bill was roughly $85.00 monthly, including elecrtricity. Its five or more times that now, so I wish I had done better, even though I did do quite a bit at the time. The building inspector laughed at my 2x8" R-26 walls then, not now. SIPs were relatively new then, so I figured they would not pass inspection. Wish I had used them now. Check out "Tom in Maine's" energy outlays for a taste of what you can achieve. He posts in this forum. Super-insulating, like a gassifier, will pay for itself over and over.

I was originally going to put in radiant floor heat, but chickened out as I didn't have the experience to do it myself. In retrospect I'd do it now, or go with radiant panels, probably the latter, due to efficiency and easier maintenance. Don't relish the though of having to rip out ceilings or a slab to do maintenance or fix any leaks. Get a good gassifier that will last and not smoke, and be able to handle any future expansion to your house. When I expanded to 3000 sq. ft., adding 1000 sq. ft. upstairs ten years after the initial construction, my existing forced hot air furnace was not up to the task, even thought the dealer told me it would be on purchase.

And get quality equipment for cutting, splitting, and hauling your wood safely. Save your body. Medical costs will eat up your energy savings in a heartbeat. Soon as my newly surgically repaired herniated disc heals, I'm installling my new gassifier and doubling my ceilings insulation up to R-60 and upstairs walls to R-26. All retro-fiiting. Wish I was at the stage of building you are at now, when this work could have been planned for and much more easily accomplished in the original construction.

Centralize your heating and plumbing components. Make all your construction as simple and easy to maintain as possible. It's a lot of work to maintain a home with acreage especially if you have a job. Best of luck with your project.

Mike

 

[flyingcow]

seems like you're going in the right direction. very good posts here also.

1. Once you figure out the r-value of walls/ceilings add at least 25% more. Don't skimp. Some type of foam is my suggestion. F/G will loose it's R-value over time. I've seen the best installs on F/G , but it's all lost R-value over time.

2. radiant, yes. Have it designed and rechecked on design. Don't just throw a bunch of pex at the floor. try to design slab to heat building with 85, maybe 100 degree water. Lower the better. Foam underneath slab= heavy mill plastic.

3. The Innova I have doesn't need a draft inducer, it works very well will minimal to no smoke roll out. but it's not a cheap unit.

4. Go cut split and stack wood right now, if you haven't done it yet. Smaller the better. a year is best for drying time.

5. Number 4 is the best advice from me.

 

[Como]

I am going to assume that you would be building to the highest LEED standards.

A small current generation pellet boiler and hopper, location wherever would be logical, basement sounds best bet, just need a pipe for bulk delivery of pellets to your hopper.

Installations issues not significant different to a modern oil or gas boiler.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

First of all I agree with the use of sip's. Been building for a living for over 35 years, wow dating myself here, anyhow.....We use them here a lot, R64 is typical standard factory panel, you can get them thicker (higher R value if you choose). They are also available for use below grade, yes you can use them for your basement. They can also be used for the roof if you are doing vaulted ceilings, no advantage to them if you have standard flat ceiling. Standard 4x8 panel is easy 2 person job if you are considering DIY house build, we use bigger panels but we have 4 man crews & a crane. Long & short of it is that nothing you do in the form of heating (no matter which system you choose) will give you as rapid an ROI as insulation (that I absolutely guarantee). Also agree on avoiding the dual fuel versions as they do a poor job of burning both fuels (you lose twice). Get a dedicated wood burner & a dedicated fossil burner, suggest a mod/con boiler for the latter. Also agree with getting all of the mess, bugs, mold, fungus, ash, dust, creosote, smoke, smell, etc, etc, etc out of your new house & keeping it out.....forever. Why go to the time, trouble, & expense of building a new home & then treat it like a 200 year old stone farm house? Just buy the 200 year old farm house that already has all that unwanted stuff (odors, bugs, etc) in it & save lots of $$$$. As far as a wood burner is concerned my suggestion is to read here (a lot) focus on units that report very few problems, repetative problems = repetative headaches, a wood burner should last 20+ years so why buy a 20 year headache. You have had some suggestions above, however they did not include the cost of storage (essential for convenience), you do want to fire when it works for your schedule right? In other words have a situation where the wood boiler works for you when you want it to not the other way around. In my situation when I compare the various gassers that have made my very short list I always price them with equal volumes of storage, so for example a garn with say 1800 gallons of built in storage (that is the way they are made) is compared with boiler X that has a similiar burn/btu/hr production rate & I then add the cost 1800 gallons (or as close as I can get to 1800) of purchased storage with the cost of boiler X in my attempt to get as close to an apple vs apple comparison as possible. I just feel that is a fair way to attempt to get a value comparison. I do not compare manufactured with something I could make from used material of any kind. That's apple vs orange. Something I want to avoid.

 

[tom in maine]

My 2 cents worth:
Superinsulate the house. R-40--MINIMUM! walls and roof. R-60 is better.
High performance windows.(R-4 or higher)

These two things make all your other choices easier. They are not as "sexy" as German Techno-Junkie heating devices, but you will be more comfortable and use a lot
less wood.

I would install as many radiant floor surfaces that are in concrete (basement slab and thin upper floor slabs.)If thin slabs are not do-able, use radiant panels (or cast iron radiators)upstairs.
You want to be able to use as low temperature water as possible.

If I could afford it, and the heat load is big enough, the Froling is worth the investment.

AND, of course, I would use an unpressurized tank for ease of installation and future add-ons, like solar, since the home's heat load is so low, given the high performance thermal envelope. (I would put a big smiley here, but have not quite figured that out yet! LOL)

 

[frank t]

i agree, lots of insulation . low tempature heat emiters. think about masonary wood heater ,no power needed. i like boilers inside ,underground pex gets expensive ,keep it simple.

 

[in hot water]

1 check with you insurance carrier about solid fueled appliances in, or attached to the house.
2 Install a fire sprinkler over the boiler and wood storage
3 Make sure you have adequate combustion air, especially in a tight home
4 install a top name CO detector along with a smoke detector
5 radiant tube it with 9, maybe 6" OC for lowest possible supply temperatures
6 consider panel radiators for sleeping areas, quick recovery and easy to setback. no need for radiant floors under beds and dressers
7 hard surfaces over any radiant, no carpet unless you use #6
8 document EVERYTHING with digital pics and videos
9 hire a GC, or at least use one for consultation, it can save headaches and big $$$ they know the local codes and potential pitfalls
10 get a copy of this book
11 plan carefully, include your wife in decisions, and enjoy the homebuilding process

hr

 

[jimde]

I also think insulated panels are a wise choice if you have the exprience. If not you can still super insulate using typical wood frame construction. For starters I would radiant the basement floor with 1.5" styrene underneath with a vertical thermal break all the way around the foundation. I would design my floor system so that my floor trussess were a inch and a half short of the outside of my 2x6 treated plate. This would allow the use of 1.5" styrene in place of where a RIM board or box sill board would normally be used. This would insure that you have insulation behind your floor plates and subfloor sheathing. When in comes to insulating the box sill you would then spray foam to the styrene backing. I would frame the home with a minimum of 2x6 walls. Walls should have 1.5" spray foam and then either a 3.5" fiberglasss batt or fiber blown dense pack. At the top of the walls I would use a energy heal truss. After your trusses are set and the roof is sheeted I would install the proper vents for air flow to the attic. Prior to this you should install the F channel for your vented soffit. On the eave portion of your roof you can then rip down the 1.5" styrene to go from the F channell to the proper vent. Then when your insulaters return for the attic ( and the house is sheetrocked) they can foam over your top plates to the styrene under your proper vents. Your vents will then be secure forever and you have insulation behind your top plates. Using this method I have been able to take awy the cold thermal conduction at the solid wood frame portions of the building. I would also frame window openings at least a half inch bigger on all sides for maximum insulation around window. These methods are my opinion on maximum R value,but your building designer will have the final say on load design.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

No need to be overly concerned with experience on installing sip panels they are an easier diy than conventional frame (faster too). Plenty of info from good manufactuers on the www., on how to install their panels, or you can take one of the courses offered by the manufactuers & learn how before you buy. Trust me they are far easier than you imagine as far as a diy project is concerned. If you are going to use them for the roof that's different as the panels are usually far larger (depending on roof design) you will need more bodies to square them up & hold them in place while they are fastened & a lot of diy people are not comfortable with being 20-30 ft off the ground. Your on the right track with radiant under floor as it suits boiler with adequate storage operation very well. Let's you extract the maximum btu's from your storage before having to refire & that's a very good situation to be in (actually exactly the situation everyone should be striving for when designing a wood fired hydronic heating system).

 

[Gooserider]

Excellent advice, I agree with most, except those that think you need to put the boiler outside... That said, I would try to isolate the boiler room from the rest of the house envelope - while I think the mess, etc. is greatly overstated, might as well minimize it's spread... I would make the door from the boiler room to the house the only opening, and make that door be a tightly fitting one - possibly use an exterior door with it's seals and gasketing... I would otherwise make the walls / ceiling out of tightly sealed rugged materials - wouldn't hurt to make them fire rated, and seal any plumbing, electrical, etc. passthroughs. I would then make provision to pull all needed combustion air from the outside - probably using a heat trap type duct configuration.

Gooserider

 

[Nofossil]

1) Design in a minimum 1000 gallon vertical propane tank for heat storage, with the structural ability to replace it if you ever needed to. I personally would frame it in somewhere on the north side of the house, against a removable section of the exterior wall. 2000 gallons would be better in most cases.

2) Above the storage tank, and above the highest point in the hydronic system (presumable the radiant coils for the top floor) install an open-topped expansion tank - about 80 gallons per 1000 gallons of storage. Keep it inside the insulation envelope. Read up on European style open / pressurized systems - I think that's the way to go.

3) If the site permits, consider ground-level solar hot water panels that thermosiphon to a DHW (or intermediate) storage tank. No pumps, no controls, little expense, free hot water.

4) Consider building in pockets in the walls for sliding insulated panels to cover the windows at night.

5) Include LOTS of plastic conduit to pull cables / fiber / whatever. I'd include conduit to each window and door so that alarm systems and insulation automation could be added later. There's no way to know what new ideas you may want to implement, but being able to easily run power / data / control around the house will almost certainly be a plus.

 

[HydrordyH]

First of all I agree with the use of sip's. Been building for a living for over 35 years, wow dating myself here, anyhow.....We use them here a lot, R64 is typical standard factory panel, you can get them thicker (higher R value if you choose).

Frozen Canuck, I have been told the SIPs do not allow moisture to pass between interior/exterior and mold can become a problem. Have you seen or ever hear of this before?

 

[Como]

If you do not have proper ventilation then you would have issues in any highly insulated design.

Whole house ventilation is the solution.

One of the reasons I would go for a a pellet boiler in these circumstances is that you only need a small tank for stratification, you store the heat in the wood.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

First & foremost you NEVER want moisture to pass from interior to exterior or vice versa, hopefully the following helps if not post here & I will try again.......As with all heated structures you will require a vapor barrier on the interior of the building, this if installed correctly should prevent moisture from entering the interior skin of the sip (usually osb or plywood). This along with an exterior envelope is how all structures are protected. When you get it right you have your structure essentially isolated from any exterior condition (outside envelope or house wrap etc) this envelope will vary given region, temp, MC of air, type of product being applied over envelope, etc....as well as isolated from any interior....well let's call them living conditions (inside envelope or vapor barrier) this envelope will vary as well depending on the conditions inside the home. I treat a bathroom with a sauna & whirlpool far differently than I treat....say a living room or bedroom....SIPs derive their strength from their skins & the adhesive bond between the skin & foam (gives them load bearing capabilities) etc. So you must protect these skins from moisture. Just as you use these envelopes to protect a traditional frame, you use these envelopes to do the same with SIPs, as you never want moisture or the mold that will follow it to exist in any structure. Hope this helps.

 

[Como]

Traditional buildings were designed to breathe, and there are of course Earthships and the like.

But they do not use SIPS.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Not sure if they were designed to breathe or it was just a consequence of the materials & techniques available at the time, as there is no advantage to exposing any structure (esp wood) to excess moisture form either inside or outside. Dry is good/desireable in a wooden structure, as all cellulose fiber will support the growth of mold if you introduce water. Never heard of an earth ship but if it anything like a cave then yes full of moisture, if it is a wooden structure buried in the ground without adequate protection then yes lots of moisture & shortened lifespan.

 

[erollins]

When my in-laws built their new house they did one very smart thing. Separate from the house and basement is a "firewood silo." He opens a door in the basement wall next to the wood furnace and has access to the 12' by 12' two story firewood pit. The outside door at the top of the silo is wide enough that he can dump wood in with the tractor bucket. This eliminates the need to stack the wood as he built it to hold the five thrown cord's that he estimated was required. Also the "add to the top take from the bottom" design allows fresh wood to be added to the top after the heating season has started while not preventing access to the well seasoned wood on the bottom.

Radiant heat in the basement floor should make you happy. I recommend putting as much insulation as you can afford between the concrete and the ground. You also need to make sure that the ground around the basement is well drained. If your house is sitting in a puddle then you will burn more wood than you can dream of.

 

[emesine]

Greetings. We are just finishing our home, which is pretty well exactly the design of yours. This is what we did:

Three car garage. Two bays for cars, the 3rd bay, which is is walled off, contains the gassifer (we went with a wood gun). I will be storing wood in this bay- there is no connection to the rest of the house for smoke, bugs, or dirt to get in. This bay is accessible only through an outside door.

I left the area under the front porch as a large cement heat storage tank (9X9X9 feet). This will be a non-pressurized storage tank that will hold enough heat to heat the house for 2-10 days, depending on the weather and how cold my wife is.

Obviously, PEX tubing in the basement slab.

In order to make the system work, you need to have a highly efficient pex tubing system in the main floor as well. This system has to work with low temperature water (120F) in order to maximize the storage tank. Staple-up systems are more like 150F, which is going to be impractical if you really want to go several days between burns (which is very important to me a busy guy like myself who doesn't have time to burn every day). Bottom line, we went with warmboard throughout the first floor. Yes, it was hideously expensive, but I think it will pay off in the end.

My hats off to all the ideas about insulation, but my wife has so many windows in this house that the wall insulation is just not going to make all that much difference.

If you want more information please let me know. You can take a look at my plans if you are really interested. We did 2500 sq feet on the main and 2500 on a walkout basement. I just found out last week my wife is pregnant with #5, so it looks like we may need the space!!

Andrew