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New EPA regulations?

Post in 'The Inglenook' started by elmoleaf, Jan 15, 2013.

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  1. elmoleaf

    elmoleaf Feeling the Heat

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    My apologies if this has already been discussed:
    In a news article online today about research into black soot impact on global warming:

    "The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in mid-December also tightened limits on soot pollution from power plants, diesel engines and burning wood from levels set in 1997."

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/black-soot-impact-on-global-warming-worse-than-thought-study-20130116-2cshu.html#ixzz2I5q0OL4h


    Also found this:


    "12/17/2012 08:57 AM [​IMG] [​IMG] ShareThis
    Under Court Order, EPA Toughens Air Quality Standards for Soot
    SustainableBusiness.com News

    The US Environmental Protection Agency has finalized rules that reduce by 20% the maximum amount of soot emitted by factory smokestacks, power plants, diesel trucks, wood-burning stoves and other pollution sources.
    ...States and counties must comply with the rules by 2020, although they can apply for extensions up to 2025, depending on how hard it might be for certain areas to meet the new standards by that time."

    Does this news have any immediate or practical effect on current sale or design of woodstoves? Or will it just further narrow stove choices and localities where you can burn in the future?

    Helpful Sponsor Ads!





  2. jotulguy

    jotulguy Feeling the Heat

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    It looks like it will effect the hearth industry as well. Its a little early to tell right now but rumor has it the new grams per hour rate is going to be 4.5. Many products already meet this standard. Currently the max is 8.5 grams per hour, except in Washington state.
  3. Doug MacIVER

    Doug MacIVER Minister of Fire

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    The fact that wood stoves are mentioned is disturbing to this guy. Other pollution sources may be a twenty year old oil burner, like the one in my cellar?then i've got two older burners in my 12,500 foot shop? oh boy, epa out of control,we're gonna stop agw all by ourselves. simple live in the dark and cold ,make it more expensive for any homeowner, renter,and business.Pity the truckers,there are already places they can't go.
  4. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor Minister of Fire

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    And then the fact that one 500 acre wildfire which is very small in size will probably put out 1,000,000,000x more soot and smoke that they will save in this new regulation. And how can you control wildfire,...YOU CANT!!
    jotulguy likes this.
  5. remkel

    remkel Minister of Fire

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    Eagerly Annihalating Productivity.......if the bureaucrats in Washington would just get off our darn backs we could accomplish great things here! As for my wood stove, any legislator is welcome to reach into THEIR pockets, not the taxpayers purses, to pay my heating bills anytime they like.
    Trilifter7 likes this.
  6. jharkin

    jharkin Minister of Fire

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    Waaa waaa waaaa. with attitudes like that society would never have left the stone age.

    Stop your crying. The previous set of epa rules never forced anyone with a smoke dragon to shut it down. You just can't buy a new one. And I think we all agree that was real progress.
    Dune, Jon1270, UMainah and 2 others like this.
  7. fossil

    fossil Accidental Moderator Staff Member

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    More efficient. "They" can come by and take away my wood stove and all my guns at the same time.!!! ;lol;lol ;lol
    lopiliberty and StihlHead like this.
  8. save$

    save$ Minister of Fire

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    And any soft drinks over 16 ounces!
    Heftiger likes this.
  9. FyreBug

    FyreBug Minister of Fire

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    Current EPA Standards form emissions are set at 7.6 gr/hr except for Washington State and Oregon where it has been at 4.5 gr/hr for a while.

    EPA and the industry was expecting the next phase to be at 4.5 gr/hr across the board for non-cat and lower for Cat and adding previously 'exempt' categories. Until.... 8 States decided this was not good enough and wanted much lower with 75% HHV efficiency which means no non-cat would meet this as of today, and only some of the cat... and this was only for phase 1! For phase 2 they want 2.5 gr/hr with higher HHV efficiency which no stoves on the market currently meet. Then for phase 3 it would be even worse. In effect relegating wood burning & manufacturing to those who have access to a welding torch and some steel since no manufacturers would spend this amount of energy and resources re-inventing the wheel.

    The reason some of these government agency goes after such a small industry and problem is its a 'low hanging fruit'. The industry is small and does not have a lot of resources and political visibility to fight back. Just imagine what would happen if they went after the trucking industry! Highways would be blocked and there would be heck to pay!

    Fortunately, it looks like saner minds should prevail after long and tedious debates. It could be years.
  10. Slow1

    Slow1 Minister of Fire

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    A bit of a catch-22 in trying to improve the total amount of emissions from wood stoves in use. If you want to make a real difference you can't keep exempting existing stove, yet if you try and legislate replacement of all pre-epa (or whatever line you draw) stoves you will alienate a lot of voters not to mention the inherent question of legality. However, if you want to rely only on new stoves going in and make a difference you have to drop the output far more than is reasonable. As we all know here the operator has as much to do with these emissions as the stove itself (lumping choice of fuel as part of the operator's responsibility). Thus how to reduce this side of it? At least with oil or gas home heating that variable is largely removed with automated systems.

    I do wonder what the emissions are from my oil boiler. It may be higher on a g/hr basis than I think, but overall on a g/day for keeping the same temp in the home I wonder where it would stand... then I wonder what the 'average' is for installations. I bet it is better than the average for wood appliances in this area, but how am I doing with my stove compared to these numbers?
  11. FyreBug

    FyreBug Minister of Fire

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    Dont have the numbers of oil vs wood. I can look into it. But the industry published numbers and analysis on reducing overall emission.

    Basically if you go too low, too fast you are actually making the problem worst. The MFG have to spend millions of dollars re-vamping their line. Who pays for this? The consumer. Do you think they will be willing to pay double or triple for a more "efficient" and "less polluting" stove? Less than likely.

    So they'll keep their old fire dragons going for as long as possible or will get a neighbour handy with a welding torch to put one together for them. The industry proved by actual numbers that if EPA was truly concerned about emissions the best way to reduce it is to provide a cash for clunker rebate to replace all the worst offenders with cleaner burn technology coupled with an education program to teach people how to burn cleanly.

    After all, no matter how clean the stove is... if you dont burn dry wood it will not matter.

    I also attended some government agencies lectures regarding the airshed 'problem' in North America. Impressive statistics in wood burning... especially when you include wild forest fire in the equation! However, taken out of the equation wood burning does affects less than 1% of the airshed (the agency could actually not provide an actual number!).
    ScotO likes this.
  12. remkel

    remkel Minister of Fire

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    Ugh, fire good......
    HDRock likes this.
  13. simple.serf

    simple.serf Feeling the Heat

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    I'd comment, But it's been a rough day with new government regulations...I think I'll sit this one out.
    Thistle, ScotO, remkel and 1 other person like this.
  14. wkpoor

    wkpoor Minister of Fire

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    Pretty sure the burn barrel in my back yard pollutes way more than my stove. And the stove has longer burn times:)
    But hey while we are on the topic of things that pollute, what about all these kids running around in diesel trucks with the tuner set on "smoke" cause it looks cool man. I'll wager any day there is more pollution going into the air from that source than wood stove use. So what we going to pick on next? Oh yeh, the chainsaws we use to cut the fuel we haul home in the diesel "coal burner" truck to burn in our super efficient wood stove.
    This is all a load of crap.
  15. StihlHead

    StihlHead Guest

    Not quite. That is for Washington State and not Oregon. In WA state, all wood stoves, pellet stoves and inserts must be EPA and WA state approved (EPA does not cut it). Any sales of non-WA approved stoves are not legal, but they sell them on CL up there. In WA, *all* OWBs are banned, period. In most counties in WA state, an OAK is required for all wood burning appliances as well as masonry fireplaces. In WA state the CAT stove limit is 2.5 gr/hr (EPA is 4.1 gr/hr), the non-CAT stove limit is 4.5 gr/hr (EPA is 7.5 gr/hr). In WA state, existing wood stoves are exempt from these certification requirements, so if you have a smoke dragon you can keep using it. However, the use is restricted during a State 1 burn ban when the use of all uncertified stoves is banned (except in homes where that is the only heating device).

    Oregon is not the same. In Oregon you can buy any stove or insert that is EPA approved or Oregon state DEQ approved (a list of pre-EPA cleaner burning stoves). New stoves have to only meet EPA requirements here. Basically if you have an old smoke dragon, you can keep using it. In Oregon, if you sell a house with a wood stove or insert in it or in any buildings on the property, they have to be either EPA approved or on the Oregon DEQ list. If the stove is not either of those, it has to be removed by the seller or a contractor and taken to an approved recycle facility and scrapped. The way around that of course is to remove the stove before the house goes on the market. There are no laws preventing that or using an older stove. You cannot "legally" sell any non-EPA/DEQ approved stove or insert in Oregon, new or used, but they come up on CL anyway. Antique stoves built prior to 1940 are grandfathered, and wood stoves designed and used for cooking are exempt.
  16. jdp1152

    jdp1152 Minister of Fire

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    The stove shops I talked to recently were all expecting MA to put in more strict requirements for new purchases...exceeding what was required at the federal level. What they know and who they know it from, I can't vouch for, but it wouldn't surprise me (nor disappoint me). Other than some added cost to the consumer, does anyone think more efficient wood burning devices are a bad thing? More heat, less smoke is a win win situation.
  17. StihlHead

    StihlHead Guest

    According to the EPA web site, the current standards being considered in 2013 for the new EPA wood stove requirements are reducing the current EPA limits for wood stoves to the current levels of WA state for CAT and non-CAT stoves. That is the only significant impact that will change wood stove designs and sales. Of course, if you live in a state and region that does not require EPA stoves then it does not really affect you. Of course the flip side is in Santa Clara Co. in CA that banned all wood burning appliances and wood fireplaces in all new home construction. Older houses with stoves and fireplaces there are exempt though. My houses in Campbell and Los Gatos both had a useless fireplace in them that smoked up the houses and did nothing to heat them.

    Me, I bought a WA state approved stove... to get ahead of the curve here.
  18. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Before you all go nuts worrying, did any one read the dates on this? It's seven years from now, with a possible 5 year extension. And most of the current stoves in production now meet the standard. Otherwise they could not be sold in WA or OR. (Guess where a lot of your stoves are made.) Relax, the sky is not falling. And our govt. is not the enemy.

    Seems like there will be lots of productivity and production in providing solutions to these issues. That = jobs.
  19. jdp1152

    jdp1152 Minister of Fire

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    well said.
  20. loadstarken

    loadstarken Member

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    Last year I was doing some reasearch for my father in law because he wanted a OWB and I found him the "Greenwood" boiler which claims that "model XXX is the only wood boiler certified in Washington state. My question is can they be used in a Stage 2 burn ban? I sent them an email and received no replies.
  21. remkel

    remkel Minister of Fire

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    I think this is where my reaction came from. I feel for you folks in NY!
  22. mudr

    mudr Member

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    Thank you
  23. Doug MacIVER

    Doug MacIVER Minister of Fire

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    I can see it now a tremendous growth in the private sector to build new boilers, engines, and stoves,sure .Growthin jobs at the epa, probably.I'll be honest ,a nobel cause is clean air but at a tremendous cost in the economy.Unilateral adjustments continue to make us more and more less competitive on the world market. Try slapping tariffs on products made in china or any asian country that doesn't follow these new regs and see what happens. I have no answer here but alone we are using a tsp to lower sea levels.
    wkpoor likes this.
  24. jharkin

    jharkin Minister of Fire

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    Does this stuff really keep you guys up at night? really?


    There have been emissions controls on automobiles wince the enactment of the first lcean air act.... But i have yet to see an EPA swat team show up at a car show to confiscate 57 Chevy's.

    Building codes have required tight insulation ofr years, but no EPA buldozer squad has shown up on my lawn to demolish my house.

    I can go on.. but you get the idea. There are more important things in life to stress about... you'll drive yourself into the nuthouse if you get so worked up and paranoid over ever news headline.
    Dune and ScotO like this.
  25. Swedishchef

    Swedishchef Minister of Fire

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    @ Jharkin. Well said.

    And in Canada since we are so few with such a large territory you can just burn smoke dragons, melt the polar ice and drown the polar bears. Too bad our stove companies will comply with EPA specs ;)

    ANdrew
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