New guy-general questions about new boiler install.

[Gasifier]

Hey guys, great site. I have been doing some research about wood and pellet boilers and your site has some excellent information on it. And to make a loooong story short, decided a wood gassification boiler was best for my situation. (I have access to free wood and some inexpensive wood if I get lazy and don't cut my own.) I have purchased an E100 Wood Gun (stainless steel vessel) from Alternate Heating Systems, which will be arriving the end of this week. Was able to get a floor model with a nice percentage off list price. And I wanted a stainless steel vessel.

I currently have an oil fired boiler which heats my house (almost 4000 sq. ft.) with base board hot water heating, and my garage (580 sq. ft.) with a radiant in-floor heating system. (This system uses a simple mixing valve to get the water to the right temperature for heating in the Pex tubing in the concrete floor. Part of the house is kept about 68 degrees and other parts a allowed to stay around 60-65 degrees. (Laundry, office, spare bedroom) The same boiler also heats my domestic hot water which is fed into a super store hot water tank(no coil) which is about 50 gallons. I have been using an efficient wood stove to keep my oil boiler from bankrupting me. The Pacific Energy Super 27 wood stove heats a very good portion of the house. Over the last four years we have used 60% less oil from this medium size wood stove. Excellent stove that I will be keeping for back up. Have used 16-18 cord of wood each year for the last four years. I will disconnect my wood stove and use that double wall insulated stainless chimney for the new boiler.

So this new Wood gun boiler will be added to my existing system. (Should it be and add-on to the existing system, or set up on its own?) I decided to go with this now because I could not heat my domestic hot water or the garage with the wood stove and the upstairs to my house would often call for heat from the oil boiler in the winter time. With the wood gun I will be able to heat everything. I have looked at some of the install diagrams on your site. I do not have the money for a new thermal storage tank at this time. Would like to add a thermal storage tank at some point but will probably have two shut off valves installed in the right place for the future installation of that. I have also been thinking of making my own thermal storage tank instead of paying 5 or 6 thousand dollars for one. So, some questions for you.

1. How in the hell am I going to get this 1400 lb. thing into my basement? ( 4 stairs down from ground level) Any suggestions would be appreciated. I have a brother who can set it next to my front door for me with a tow truck that has a extendable boom arm and winch on it. I will use steel pipe to try to roll it to the stairs, but what about getting down the stairs? Build a ramp? Reinforce the stairs, they are currently pretty solid. But I will play it safe and brace a little extra.
2. Could I buy two or three used 80 gallon electric hot water heaters, made within the last few years, and use them for thermal storage? I have seen a few around, they are fairly well insulated. R-value of 16. Be a lot cheaper at $250 apiece. AHS boiler holds sixty gallans in itself, my oil boiler holds its own water, probably 30 gallons with out looking, and then there is the superstore tank of 50 gallons. The reasong I would like some additional storage is so I could fire my boiler once every other day in the summer in order to heat DHW. I have also thought about a used 250 gallon propane tank and then insulate it with a closed cell spray foam kit. Or better yet an upright used tank.
3. Should the new boiler be an add-on to the existing system? I believe I read somewhere on your site that boilers in series is not good.? All the gasification dealers say they can be added to your existing system.

Sorry about the novel guys. I have more questions but I told you I would try to make long story short. I did not suceed. Have a good one.

 

[Fred61]

I'm not confident enough to give you advice on installation but my first thoughts were that an E-100 seems small for the area you are going to heat with it. What is the BTU rating of your fossil fuel boiler? I suspect unless you are extremely well insulated, given your location the Wood Gun will be running flat out during mid winter.

 

[Gasifier]

The E100 is rated at 100,000 BTU on the web site. My current fossil fuel boiler is rated at 129,000 max output. The salesman at Alternate Heating Systems, that sold me the E100 Wood Gun, said that it actually puts out more than 100,000 BTU. He said they are eventually going to discontinue the sale of the E-140 Wood Gun (140,000 BTU) because the E100 puts that much out. I read on this site, and by talking with salesmen from several different gassification boiler producers, that it is better to undersize the boiler. I did not want to oversize the unit and have it shutting down more often. ? I suppose if they burn most efficient when they are running the hottest, than it would be a good thing if it was running straight out in the middle of the winter. For several reasons, I think it will heat the space okay. In my square footage there is 900 sq. ft. of finished basement. That only needs to be kept at 60. I think the heat coming off the boiler will keep it there. Does anyone know if the E100 gives out much heat off of it's outside? It seems like I read somewhere on here that it puts out some radiant heat, off the front especially. The garage is about 900 sq. ft. and I only keep it at 45 degrees and is extremely well insulated with closed cell spray foam in the walls and ceiling. That is great stuff. That radiant floor heat in there is efficient. I wish I had that in my basement floor. That is another project in the distant future. The baseboard loop is already there, so some day I am going to poor a new floor right over the one that is there and put radiant in it. How many owners of wood guns on the site? I would like to get some advice from you.

 

[afblue]

There is a debate here whether you should oversize/undersize your gasser. There is no hard and fast rule, but it comes down to a few factors, if you are not going to have storage, then you have to contend with idling, and the bigger the boiler, the worse its going to idle as the winters get warmer. So I wouls say to size a boiler close to your required heat load, but dont intentionally undersize it. There may be a certain time of the year in the harshest part of the winter that your oil boiler may kick on for suplement, and thats not really a bad thing to let it run a little bit once in a while, its just going to cost you $$. Now if you are going to go hardcore and run on only wood, and dont dare let the oil boiler ever turn on, storage helps, and you can then oversize the boiler. If you have a place for the BTUs to go, you can adjust the size of the boiler.

In your first post is that 16-18 full cord, or face cord? If its face, that makes sense compared to your oil boiler, if its full cord, you are undersized on both your oil and your wood boilers.

Take a look into the stickies "Simplest Pressurized storage system" Wood gun should be added as an add on, in "Parallel", That is what is depicted in the diagram. You dont want to connect the boiler in "series" as in the output of one boiler connects to the input of the next boiler, then to the distributions system, it creates extreme standby losses.

There are a good amount of Wood Gun owners here on the forum, but you probably wont hear too much response from most of them right now, as soon as everyone stops burning wood for the year, people disappear from here for a few months.

 

[Gasifier]

That is 16-18 face cord. Thanks for the clarification of boilers in parralel being good as apposed to in series not being good. I have already copied the diagram of “Simplest Pressurized storage system†and printed it out to show my guy who will be piping up my installation. The thing I am shooting for is to run my oil boiler as little as possible. But good point about allowing it to kick on every once and a while. I will need to keep it clean and keep it in good operating condition.

I am going to try to figure out a way to get at least some storage right now. I do not have the money, but am going to try to find a used tank of some type and insulate it my self. Any suggestions from anyone on making my own thermal storage tank would be appreciated.

 

[afblue]

If you have your oil boiler in good working order, I would let it do the work filling in the highs and lows. I would save yourself the stress of trying to add "a little bit of storage" and run it for a year, and save up to install it next year.

Storage is based on what space you have available and what heat emitters you have. Argueably the most versital storage is 500 gallon propane tanks, they are easy to plumb, and they can be heated upwards of 200+ degrees. They work well with high heat emitters like baseboard and cast iron rads. The downsize is the size and availability of used cheap ones. They are also heavy and large. So you cant get them through a normal doorway. You either need them in a shed or garage if you dont have a walkout basement. There are manufactured pressurized storage systems but they are proportionally expensive. The next option is unpressurized storage Essentially a super insulated water bath that can be constructed in the space and have copper coils inside that exchange the BTUs. The limitations now fall on max temp they can run, unpressurized storage starts to hit its limit in the 180-190 range, some argue its the waterproof liner that is used, but I think its more based on heat transfer to and from the exhanger coils inside at these high temps. So if you have a heating system like baseboard or cast iron that needs to run 160+F there is very little heat that is stored in there. Where if you have radiant floors or panels, that can go down to 110-120, then you have far more useable heat.

 

[Gasifier]

Another question for the install of a wood gun. Do I need a boiler protection valve with the E100 Wood gun with stainless steel vessel? I read somewhere on this site you need a valve like this to protect a boiler from cold water entering the boiler. Then seems like I saw someone else say if you have stainless steel then disregard. Thanks for your time and any suggestions are appreciated.

 

[ewdudley]

Another question for the install of a wood gun. Do I need a boiler protection valve with the E100 Wood gun with stainless steel vessel? I read somewhere on this site you need a valve like this to protect a boiler from cold water entering the boiler. Then seems like I saw someone else say if you have stainless steel then disregard. Thanks for your time and any suggestions are appreciated.

Since you have baseboard heating and therefore half-heated water would be marginally useful to begin with, and since at all times you need water hot enough to heat DHW, and since according to Murphy's Law: Stainless Steel Ain't; then the only reason not to have return temperature control would be to save a relatively tiny amount of money in order to have a system that performs poorly.

And once you do have storage, not having return temperature control could mean that when storage gets depleted and the house is a little cool it could be many miserable hours before you get water hot enough to appease the boss.

So IMNSHO it doesn't seem to me that you'd be doing yourself any favors running without return temperature control.

Cheers --ewd

 

[Fred61]

Another question for the install of a wood gun. Do I need a boiler protection valve with the E100 Wood gun with stainless steel vessel? I read somewhere on this site you need a valve like this to protect a boiler from cold water entering the boiler. Then seems like I saw someone else say if you have stainless steel then disregard. Thanks for your time and any suggestions are appreciated.

Since you have baseboard heating and therefore half-heated water would be marginally useful to begin with, and since at all times you need water hot enough to heat DHW, and since according to Murphy's Law: Stainless Steel Ain't; then the only reason not to have return temperature control would be to save a relatively tiny amount of money in order to have a system that performs poorly.

And once you do have storage, not having return temperature control could mean that when storage gets depleted and the house is a little cool it could be many miserable hours before you get water hot enough to appease the boss.

So IMNSHO it doesn't seem to me that you'd be doing yourself any favors running without return temperature control.

Cheers --ewd

Plus--- your boiler is going to be more efficient when the boiler water and refractory are HOT. Periods of high demand or cold start could keep the boiler from running at peak efficiency for hours. You may even see smoke coming from the chimney.

 

[Gasifier]

Thank you for the advice. As you can see I am new to the Wood Gassification Boiler thing. Now, help me think this through. I have been reading about the different gassification boilers and some of their problems. One of the problems I have read about is potential smoke issues coming from the wood gun. I may decide to purchase the fan vented hood before I actually fire it up. It is suppose to be delivered this Friday. I will not get it plumbed up right away. I figure I will take my time and figure out exactly the best way to pipe it in. I am trying to decide if I should put it in the basement (I will buy the fan vented hood if I do), or if I should put it in a detached garage that I have. If I do the detached garage it means going out there to load each time and renting a mini excavator for a few hundred bucks for the day and digging the ditch to lay the pipe. I have rented plenty of equipment and can do this no problem. Is there any distance that is too long for the underground pipeing and boiler? The ditch would have to be approximately 80-100 ft. long. I would like to be able to check it more often for the first few years until I get through the learning curve with it though. So I am leaning to installing it in my basement. I have room there for that and for thermal storage if I decide to add it. It just seems to me that it would be much more convenient in the basement. But I suppose the smoke issue needs to be considered. My wife says try it in the basement the first year or two, and then if we don't like it in there then you can move out to the garage. :ahhh: I laughed and I said, "Easy for you to say. The thing weighs 1400 pounds. I'm not moving it again after I get it in place. Opinions would be appreciated. Thanks for the advice guys.

 

[Tennman]

Very dangerous question, inside vs out people here are passionate about this topic. No question which is more efficient... in house or basement. BUT, I will tell you that I would NEVER have mine and all the dirt/smoke it generates in my home. And I could never keep my wife happy if it was and continuously keeping it going with the pressure of not upsetting her or my daughter's allergies would drive me nuts. If I want to open mine for whatever reason weighing the risk of a billow of smoke or worse yet, ball of fire never concerns me. My boiler barn is covered with a fine layer of soot that I take a leaf blower to mid and end season. My wife operates the boiler when I'm not home with no comments because its "not in her space" so we don't care about smoke or soot. I can quote Heaterman here on this topic, who has installed a number of systems. In his experience the owners with the boiler outside are have a higher percentage of satisfaction. Easy for me to say since where we live, I rarely trudge thru snow to tend our boiler. But IF I was way up north and know what I know now about operating these beasts..... it would be at least 50-100 from the house in it's own building just like ours is today. Along with the splitter, stack, bugs, dirt, and smoke. I'm sure there are women out there that can live with the mess, but if I wouldn't tolerate it how could I expect her to. For me, the freedom of not worrying about all the above mess, which DOES happen, is WAY worth the price of lost efficiency to me. Now ask me how I really feel..... Funnel cloud just went over our building. Nasty in the South today.

 

[Tennman]

BTW, for me the idea configuration would have the smoke beast away from the house and the storage tanks in the basement. They better not smoke.

 

[willworkforwood]

Tennman is correct in saying there are lots of folks on both sides of the boiler-in-the-basement. He mentioned allergies in his family, and I agree 100% that if there is a health issue with sensitivity to smoke then it should go outside. However, you mentioned running a wood stove. I've also run a wood stove, and feel that there was at least as much smoke from that as from my boiler (but not much in either case). We've had a very good experience with the basement install, and have a functional smoke detector located about 10' from the boiler. No smoke, as long as loading is done when the boiler is down to a coal bed. Naturally, the loading process needs to be done efficiently - no leaving the door open to take care of some other job. If you choose to run without storage at first, what the basement install adds is the ability to easily run smaller fires, and reduce idling to a minimum. With a large supply of wood in the basement, it's very easy for us to go down the stairs and throw in a few splits to keep a right-sized fire going. Tennman is right about the mess, but neither one of us care if the unfinished basement isn't spotless. My wife doesn't mind a bit stepping on a bit of wood mess, to feed the boiler that keeps her comfortable all Winter! Not trying here to convince you to do the basement install - this is just one person's experience. Use the search to gather other opinions and then make your own decision. Good luck with it.
BTW - you unknowingly chose the same name (cap difference) as one of the most knowledgeable folks on the forum - don't be surprised if you start geting PMs asking for your professional advice ;-)

 

[Gasifier]

Thanks for the input. I pretty much am the only one who uses the basement 90% of the time. Workout room, occasionally throw darts and have a beer or two with friends. Finished off, but needs some work. Not worried about a little mess. I clean it up every three days or so of the burning season. I think I am going to try it down there. I like being able to just go down stairs and load it. I did not realize I picked the same user name as someone else. Can I change that with out any problems?

 

[711mhw]

[quote author="Gasifier" date="1303929651"] I have read about is potential smoke issues coming from the wood gun. I may decide to purchase the fan vented hood before I actually fire it up.
The smoke hood is a must! Well worth it on the WG, I'll put mine on even when cleaning the unit weakly to help pull the fine airborne dust out. I like having my WG in the heated area vs/garage. It does give off a bunch of heat especially when she's working hard. That might not be so great in Aug. when all that you're making is dhw. If you don't use the WG for dhw in the summer, would you make it with your existing oil boiler? (sorry if I missed that in your posts) how about a oil fired dhwh? That's my set up but it's just me and my wife. The summer fuel usage for the dhwh is very little in our situation. As far as getting your burning practice, it won't be the same as full tilt winter burning, but go for it. This was my first year with the WG and it's really not as much of a mystery as the manual had led me to believe. I pestered the guys at AHS at first but that became unnecessary soon. Oh one more thing about the exhaust hood is you can take that stupid smoke shield out! I figured that I was some how going to be careful (I thought it was to prevent a flashback) and never installed it, it lays under the cyclone seperator to catch anything that might spill off the tray when cleaning.I told AHS that I was running without it and he said that he didn't use his either, but that he couldn't officially say not to use it.
Now I'm pretty new to all this myself but I think that a lot of guys here that talk about "idling" don't fully understand how the WG works and to what extremes they (AHS) went to in there design to actually stop all the air from entering into the stove.(during the off time, aquastat happy) The fire goes out!! It may take 10 min. or more when she calls for heat but it restarts, I do understsand that may be called idling but I don't think that we're aples to aples here when others talk about idling, but then all I really know is my WG. Another thing that I believe is different about the WG and it's operation is that ability to turn on and off - kinda-, is the storage deal. When I discovered this site, unfortunately was after all of my decisions, designs, and installations were complete. I had posted here about what I had and what was all this talk about storage? I didn't have any and so far, didn't see any need for it. Well... from some of the response that I got, you'd thought that I had cussed every one here's mother Now I'm not sure if I got lucky .(I knew so little that I thought that AHS invented and was the only people with a "gasser") with my particular installation (it all was from the ground up with a profesional radiant designers). I told them, here's my bldg., I want radiant heat, and wanted to use this boiler. I did all of the installation, from the tubes in the 'crete, to the radiant manifolds and controls, to the WG install myself. My radiant guy knew that in this application generally storage was required and he called AHS and was convinced that the people that he had talked to there, knew what they were talking about and storage was not needed. Here I am, either completely doing this all wrong, or like I hope, just a happy guy heating with wood, hopefully efficiently and as "cleanly" as practical.
I don't have "burns" I just fill it as needed, similar to a wood stove. We're around most all day and throw a bunch in in the AM, maybe poke it or toss some more in at lunch or so, again at supper, and chock it full (no smoke shield) at bed time. It turns on at 185 deg. and off at 200 deg. The house is small, crazy insulated and air sealed, and most of the winter (in Maine) the upstairs was around 80 deg. and that over rode the radiant tstat. I guess that might be a complaint, but It keeps the Old Lady 'bout half naked all winter so maybe not. Boy am I running on here. I'd say get your 'gun' in and running, order the smoke hood, play around with firing for dhw, go through next winter, and see what you may want to tweek from there. And keep on reading here, a bunch of guys with lots of experience, knowledge, OPINIONS, and happy to express all 3.
Good luck!