New Guy, playing with options.....any advice?

[Icarus]

Hi Everyone,
I've found more info here that I makes sense to me than anywhere else...Thank You all!

I'm getting ready to add my first fireplace to my 1 year old home. It is 1700 sqft. ranch with an open design and a 1500 sqft basement. I have a oil/hot air system that I hope to never to use again, other than the fan.

The fireplace will go in the livingroom 20' x 25'. The box and chimney will be in an outside chase.

I spent hours reading this forum last night and I learned a lot, but I have to ask. I am pretty sold on the Quad 1700fp (was the first fireplace to catch my eye) as being a good fireplace, but It's big for my home.

With that being said, I was wondering, if I utilize more heat, would the Quad 1700 be a better fit?
1) Can I run a heat zone kit straight into the basement? This would add 1500 sqft. to be heated, in theory.
2) I plan to use the hot air system fan to circulate the heat from the fireplace (the main return register is in the ceiling 15 feet from the fireplace) to every room in the house.
3) I will leave the attic door (fold down stairs) uninsulated.
4) would the auxilliary convection kit help?

The other fireplace I was looking at is the FPX Elite 36 or 44. I have a little hesitation due to the CAT.

 

[babalu87]

Calling Elk
Elk to the Main Forum please
Elk to the main forum

 

[moralleper]

uh oh!

 

[My_3_Girls]

Hehehehe - you guys are tough!! Not wrong, but tough.... well, I think we all might have been on elks' mind once or twice, but it's this guys' first post. I hope he goes easy on him!

 

[MrGriz]

Welcome to the hearth Icarus. I'm not the resident expert, hell I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but I'll throw in my .02 while were waiting for the brain trust.

1. Not sure.

2. This has been tried many many times and I don't think I've ever heard of it working well. There is too much heat loss in the return system to make it an efficient way to move warm air. You are much better off using ceiling fans or other strategically placed fans to move cold air back to the stove.

3. Insulate and seal the attic access as well as possible. You're thinking of "wasting" heat up the access into the attic, what you're really doing is creating a pressure issue with the house and it could negatively effect your draft.

4. Not sure.

It does sound like you have a good setup for heating with wood. The open floor plan and the main floor location should work well for you. The one negative I can see is the outside wall for the fireplace and chimney, but that just means you need to properly construct and insulate it.

I hope that helps, or at least sparks some more comment. Good luck.

 

[MrGriz]

One more thought. I wouldn't get too hung up on the manufacturer's rating of square footage that can be heated or BTU output in making your decision that the stove is too big for your home. Those ratings are suspect at best and real world experiences can be quite different.

I was concerned that I would roast myself out of my basement office with my insert, based on the mfr's numbers. After a year of burning, I'm sure glad I didn't go any smaller and probably could have gone bigger without any problem.

 

[elkimmeg]

This question and practice of using a HVAC system for purposes ,that are outside the realm of its design factor, has been addressed time an time again. I want to look at it from a different angle, one I have not brought forth before. When heated air lexits from your furnace exchanger, it is between 120 /140 degrees. Lets use130 for this example. Say your return picks up 78 degree air uses its return plenum and brings it back to pass threw the exchanger to finally to your supply vents. Factoring in the common heat lose, due to transmission. What do you think will be exiting out your supply vents? A degee or two? Now how is that going to extend the heat influence of the wood stove using the returns? Remember your exchanger exits air 130 and it does not have to travel in your leaky return system, located outside you insulation envelope and enter into the supply side. Plain and simple it will not work. Many have tried with the same results no heat.
Please allow me to be blunt in describing you current HVAC system. It is nothing personal here but an effective way to make my point

First of all most dual ac /heating systems are woefully inadequate at performing both functions. The fact that you have ceiling returns is a heating system vastly compromised. There is no means of removing the cooler low level air to draw down the lighter warmer air from above. No wonder you are considering auxiliary heat source. Unfortunately the original heating contractor did what was convent for price and did not address design efficiency. Ceiling returns will work much better for Ac application than for heating. The next problem, part of is most return system comprise joist bay plenums. Besides being extremely leak prone, they are not designed for heat transferee temps ranges Air infiltration reduces the overall efficiency of the entire system . Another factor many only balance the supply side of your duct system. The return side is out of balance further reducing its usage to transferee heat from one area to another.

Design factor your closed loop system is designed to move air from a heat exchanged it was never designed to remove air from an open combustion appliance You are using it beyond its design factor.

I saved the safety compromises to last. The system is not have the built in design factor. It was never designed to pick up air from an open combustion appliance. There are no smoke dampers no monoxide protection. Drawing combustion air mechanically from an open combustion appliance is a recite for disaster. Especially with out safeguard protection. It is a reality; mechanically removing air around an open combustion appliance will create a negative pressure situation. Negative pressure situations are prone to back draft volatile poisonous flue gasses. . That are now picked up by the mechanical system and spread to sleeping areas. What I’m describing is creating an expressway to disaster. You just negated all build in draft stopping and containment, That affords invaluable time to safely exit in times of disaster. For what ,maybe one degree of heat.

This is a bad ill-conceived idea,, not worth the increased risk you are exposing your family to. Many have tried this method only to compromise their personal safety. Do not expect anyone here to endorse such foolishness

 

[karl]

Elk,

What are you thoughts about a dedicated duct line going from one end of the house through the basement into the room where the stove is and blow cold air into the stove room from the duct. Then the warm air from the stove room will be pushed out and towards the end of the house. The duct would be insulated so as not absorb alot of cold air from the basement, even though the basement is partially heated.

 

[Icarus]

Thank You very much!

So far, in my search I've been told only good things about each fireplace I've looked at and have yet to be asked any questions about the application like: "how big is your home?". I have a lot more respect and confidence in the straight talk here than I've found anywhere else so far.

As far as my heating system is concerned......You are absolutely correct, it's pretty much backwards and a strong point to wanting an alternative heat source.
I never would have thought that using the HVAC to circulate heat could be such a bad and dangerous idea, especially when all the salesmen I've spoken to actually suggested it, rather than use the zone heat capabilities that are built-into the unit. I'll stick with the ceiling fans, thank you.

 

[jpl1nh]

"The other fireplace I was looking at is the FPX Elite 36 or 44. I have a little hesitation due to the CAT."
I think catalytic combustors get a bad rap. They work very well when used correctly and last a long time with intelligent use. You need to avoid burning stuff other than nicely seasoned wood, you need to avoid overfiring, and you need to allow the fire to get up to a temperature of at least 500 degrees before engaging. Once they are fireing they provide wonderful efficiency for long slow burns from a heating unit. Don't be put off by them. They can be a real asset with proper knowledge and use and when used intelligently are not expensive either.

 

[Gooserider]

Hi Everyone,
I've found more info here that I makes sense to me than anywhere else...Thank You all!

We be good... Thanks for the kind words, and welcome to the Hearth.

I'm getting ready to add my first fireplace to my 1 year old home. It is 1700 sqft. ranch with an open design and a 1500 sqft basement. I have a oil/hot air system that I hope to never to use again, other than the fan.

Why a fireplace and not a woodstove? At least some people say you will get more heat out of a stove, though others will debate the point. Not saying you're wrong, just wanting to make sure you've thought about the options.

The fireplace will go in the livingroom 20' x 25'. The box and chimney will be in an outside chase.

Do a search on "Evil Chimney" - putting the firebox and chimney in a chase is one of the WORST places to put a wood burner of any sort - it tends to cause cold, poorly drafting chimneys, and considerable efficiency loss as the heat escapes to warm the great outdoors via the three exposed sides. You will get MUCH better results if you can figure a way to build the unit into as central a location as you can, and run the chimney straight up through the INTERIOR of the house. If you must put the unit in a chase, plan on insulating the heck out of it, at least as good if not better than any other part of your outside walls. Remember stoves make lousy windows!

I spent hours reading this forum last night and I learned a lot, but I have to ask. I am pretty sold on the Quad 1700fp (was the first fireplace to catch my eye) as being a good fireplace, but It's big for my home.
With that being said, I was wondering, if I utilize more heat, would the Quad 1700 be a better fit?

I am not a model expert, so I can't comment usefully on particular units, however most posters seem pretty happy with the Quad products.

In general, there are really only a couple of things you should worry about in the stove maker's literature - 1. Make sure any unit you consider is EPA rated for heating (watch out for the decorative fireplace units especially) 2. The size of the firebox in Cubic Feet. Ignore BTU outputs, "areas heated" and other such drivel that is mostly a product of how the advertising department decided to cook the books on the test results. In general, you probably want a firebox in the 2-3cf range, maybe a bit larger for your home size. I wouldn't worry about going "to big" unless you get really extreme - I've seen ten or more complaints saying "my stove is to small" for every one saying it's to big.

1) Can I run a heat zone kit straight into the basement? This would add 1500 sqft. to be heated, in theory.

Don't know, it might be in the manual (Most manuals are on line, it is a good idea to download and read (or at least skim) the manual on any stove that makes it to your "short list" of likely candidates.) However if you are increasing the area to be heated, that will mean you are likely to want a larger unit.

2) I plan to use the hot air system fan to circulate the heat from the fireplace (the main return register is in the ceiling 15 feet from the fireplace) to every room in the house.

BAD IDEA - as already discussed by Elk

3) I will leave the attic door (fold down stairs) uninsulated.

Bad idea! You can gain as much heat by improving your weather sealing and keeping it in as you get from a stove. A pulldown stair is a MAJOR heat leaker, and worse it can cause negative pressure problems for the fireplace and give you burning issues. You should do everything you can to seal that door and try to get it insulated to at least the same level as the rest of the attic. - Try making a "box cover" out of foam board to cover the stairs when they are folded up.

4) would the auxilliary convection kit help?

Not sure what that is, but it sounds like a fan of some sort? If so, probably yes - in general fireplaces and inserts need all the help they can get to extract the heat and get it into the house, which means blowers.

The other fireplace I was looking at is the FPX Elite 36 or 44. I have a little hesitation due to the CAT.

In general, the cat is less of a problem than most people make it out to be, as long as you follow the rules about only burning dry cordwood. The only big downside to a cat is that they tend to put on less of a "light show" of spectacular flamage than a secondary combustion type stove that burns the smoke in front of the window. A cat stove pulls the smoke into a hidden chamber and burns it there, which is less fun to watch.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Karl there are fuse able link grills/dampers that could be used to afford some protection. Say the link is designed to melt at 140 degrees

the grill / dampers spring loaded when the link melts it closes that grill.. That would eliminate the spread of smoke and fire but a Co detection would be a must

You might need another detector. Since you would be moving air towards the heat source It would be not as dangerous as the opposite direction
Hell it might even work.. My far upstairs bedroom I place a 12/12" box fan on the floor of the doorway and aim it towards the stairs After 2 or 3 hours running I can elevate
the temperature in that room 4 degrees When I go to bed I disconnect the fan close the door. And the temp drops but I start out warmer and remain warmer than before
Still may need to pull another blanket over during the night


Addressing the Cat combustors bad rap for a device that will burn cleaner extract more heat out of the firewood. In general Cat combustors burn more efficient that non combustor stoves

What not to like about those positives Too many time a cat combustion technology is diss from a person that has never experienced using one or a salesman ploy to direct you away from a competitor's product.. Way back when in the mid 80"s a lot of companies retro fitted cat combustors to stoves to try and meet the new EPA regulations.
In many cases they were just placed in the flues collars. They clogged up never worked that well
Thus all the negative attitude about them. Some companies figured it out place ,then in a separate combustion chamber draw the smoke into it and ignite it
All Cat combustors today are in usage with 25 years of technology experience tweaking the design These are not the combustors of yesteryear but finely engineered cat combustors and chambers.. I own two cat combustor stoves and I happy with the performance and results

 

[senorFrog]

I've read here before that Zero Clearance Fireplaces could be used in conjunction with an HVAC system. If so, it would seem to be a significant advantage over a wood stove or insert.

See this thread for more details re zero clearnace and HVAC...

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/7345/

 

[elkimmeg]

I have no problem using a system tested and designed to work with the existing duct work. The issues I take is when it is self designed not tested and no safety factors considered

 

[Icarus]

I think I may have caused a little confusion in what I meant by.. "2) I plan to use the hot air system fan to circulate the heat from the fireplace (the main return register is in the ceiling 15 feet from the fireplace) to every room in the house."
I have no intention of piping any air from the fireplace. I just meant turn on the "fan" in my existing HVAC to circulate the air in the house from one room to another, not the "hot air fan on the fireplace". The quad 1700fp is equiped with a "heat zone system" that allaows you to run warm air to anywhere in the house, but it needs to be a dedicated system. check the link for a brief description. http://content.hearthnhome.com/downloads/brochures/bro_7100fp.pdf

I'm not planning on using the heat zone system, unless it would prove practicle and safe in the basement.

 

[senorFrog]

Based on the quad website, it seems the 1700FP ia meant to be used with duct work to distribute heat...

http://www.quadrafire.com/products/fireplaces/woodFireplaceDetail.asp?f=7100fp

Seems like either FPX will do the same thing...

http://www.fireplacex.com/product_guide/detail.aspx?id=97#Specs

Icarus, thanks for clearing that up. Good luck.

 

[senorFrog]

Dbl post.