New home construction heating decisions

[lumbajac]

Hello all,

I have recently sold my home located on 5 country acres of which I heated both my in-floor radiant heat and domestic hot water with a Taylor outdoor wood boiler. The Taylor worked well for me and I loved not having a heating bill. Reason for selling and moving was to get closer to work.

I own a 3/4 acre lot in town and am now finalizing plans for a new 2400 sq.ft. home. The home will be less than a 5 minute walk for both my wife and I to our place of employment. Additionally, this will result in saving (at last year's prices) an average of $475 per month in gas for our vehicle.

For the past 2 years as we've worked on our new home endeavors, I've planned on using a Greenwood boiler in the home, to be located in the basement. However, thanks to many on hearth.com I've discovered a lot of problems with the Greenwood. Additionally, I talked with my local HVAC contractor who contacted Greenwood and sensed a lot of issues with their boiler. The issue at hand now is that my HVAC contractor has steered me towards installing a natural gas forced air system. As he says, "You can buy a lot of natural gas and good insulation with the $10K+ a wood boilder-hydronic system will cost you."

I recently discovered the Orlan EKO wood boiler system, have talked to a contractor who sells them (cozyheat.net), have talked with 2 different owners of an EKO boiler, and have read through a lot of information on the internet. I need a wood gasification system in an attempt to minimize the amount of smoke produced due to being in town. If I go with wood, I would need to have the system in my basement as space is available and I do not wish to construct outbuildings in town. If I end up going with the EKO, I would plan on 1000 gallons of hot water storage. With that said, can anybody offer recommendations as to what they think they would do in my situation? Go with the EKO and hydronic heating OR go with the natural gas forced air? Reasons?

One more thing - I have a portable sawmill with quite a lot of waste slab wood available to burn... according to the EKO brochure one can burn anything from the size of sawdust to 7" diameter cordwood (dry). I also own 80 acres of mixed aspen/soft (red) maple, and I actually like to make firewood. Talking with a local EKO owner, he has had some creosote issues with aspen. I will be doing 80% of the build on my new home myself. If I go with NG forced air, I will subcontract out the entire heating system to an HVAC contractor. If I go with the EKO and radiant in-floor heat, I plan to do most of the system myself with the help of an HVAC contractor on connecting the EKO boiler/water/in-floor system to one another.

Thanks,
Lumbajac

 

[Chris S]

I'm sure you'll get a lot more responses on this one, but here's my opinion.
We call furnaces scorched air heat, and I don't sell them to me customers
Having lived with radiant heat- how could you possibly consider anything else.

Yes you can buy a lot of HVAC for 10,000 but with the increasing cost of fuel (s) I think buying the most efficient equipment you can afford ( or even borrow to own) makes more sense now than ever.

I haven't installed mine yet- I'm also in the process of building a new home, and having seen 5 gasifiers recently , I'm also buying an EKO

Good luck with your new home
Chris

 

[leaddog]

I have an eko80 and this is my first year with it. I have burnt all types of wood from chips, hardwood, aspen and dead stuff. They will all burn good if they are DRY. Probably the reason he had a problem with aspen is beening a very soft wood it can pick up moisture very easy even if it has been cut over a year. Most of my wood hasn't been dry enough and you will get some smoke and if it is too wet it will not gasify. Bark will smoke also if it isn't real dry and it tends to hold moisture and pick up moisture easily.
The secret to get a good burn is to learn how to build a proper fire in these gasifiers. You start a small fire and get good coals then you fill up the fire box. If you don't have coals you will smoke for a long time as the ceramic doesn't get hot enough to get a secondary burn. It takes a learning curve but once you learn it is easy. When you are burning all the time you will have coals in the bottem so all you have to do is put wood in.
If I was puting one in my basement I would install a draft inducer to help keep any smoke from excaping into the air when you open the door. It isn't nessesary if you dont open the door untill the fire dies down but if you are like me you just have to check things. It would also make it easier to start a fire faster.
You sound like the type of person who will enjoy burning wood and have it cheap (free) so I would recomend you go with a gasifier. Gas has nowhere to go but UP UP UP.
Also you can burn any dia wood that you can fit in the door of a eko and on mine I think it is about 11in. You just need to have coals started and then put in different size pieces with the large ones. When you burn chips or other small stuff you need to use larger peices to make it so the air can flow, about half and half. Just remember use dry wood.
I had a OWB and I use at least 1/3 less wood and that was learning and I expect that will get down to about 1/2 as I learn more. The longer I have it the happier I am.
I bought mine also from cozy heat and have been very pleased with them.
leaddog

 

[lumbajac]

I'm sure you'll get a lot more responses on this one, but here's my opinion.
We call furnaces scorched air heat, and I don't sell them to me customers
Having lived with radiant heat- how could you possibly consider anything else.

Yes you can buy a lot of HVAC for 10,000 but with the increasing cost of fuel (s) I think buying the most efficient equipment you can afford ( or even borrow to own) makes more sense now than ever.

I haven't installed mine yet- I'm also in the process of building a new home, and having seen 5 gasifiers recently , I'm also buying an EKO

Good luck with your new home
Chris

Chris - thanks for the input. Good question, how could I possibly consider anything else other than radiant once having already had it before? Well, upfront cost I guess... not a good answer, but the truth at this point. Your correlation of forced air being "scorched air" is right on the money. I am currently renting a home in town while I prepare to build and will continue to live here as I build. This home has a forced air system. It never really seems comfortable even set at 70. Beyond 70 I imagine our heating bill would be astronomical. The heat is definitely uneven heat and dry heat. One thing my HVAC contractor has said though is that forced air systems have made leaps and bounds in the past 5 years in terms of humidity adjustments, zoning, and efficiency.

Lastly - I agree with your point regarding the increasing cost of fuels. Pay now or pay later is the decision I'll have to make.

Thanks,
lumbajac

 

[lumbajac]

I'm going to add to my original post here - what about resale value? I plan (although plans change) on retiring in about 20 years and then selling the home at that time. From my point of view, not many people are interested in making firewood anymore whether it is due to lack of availability or ambition. With that said, I may sell in 20 years or I may sell in 10 years. Does anyone have experience with or insight into how a wood gasification system with radiant heat may affect my resale value of the home? I guess I'm thinking of 2 possibilities... many people would balk at the system. Others might jump at it with the increasing interest in wood pellet stoves. Heck, the EKO can burn wood pellets too so they would be set.

Thanks,
lumbajac

 

[jebatty]

Eco users seem very satisfied, as do Tarm users, so just check Tarm out also. I burn almost exclusively dry pine slab wood from my sawmill in the gasifier, no creosote issue at all. Burn near 100% dry aspen in my wood stove, no creosote issue. Can't believe a creosote issue with aspen in a gasifier unless possibly it's green or really wet.

Regarding NG, most for US comes from Canada, and Canada demands for NG are rising considerably, supply is not dependable for the future. Also, NG cost will track with prices for alternative fuels, until scarcity drives it out of sight along with other petroleum prices.

Keep in mind on resale to leave room to possibly add a NG boiler in the future. A gasifier in series or parallel with another boiler is a reasonable option. Given the large infrastructure for NG, I suspect that a vapor gas fuel will remain available into the long future, probably a syn-gas of some type, but your guess is as good as mine on the price.

What tank arrangement are you planning for storage? I'm getting a used 1000 gal LP tank delivered on Tuesday for pressurized storage, to replace my 3 x 275 gallon old fuel oil tank open storage.

Comment on quick and easy fire starting with the gasifier are right on. Everyone develops his own technique. I can have my Tarm cold-started, gasifying, and fully loaded within 5-10 minutes, then just walk away and let it do its job.

No objection to a draft inducer, but I have no need for one. My chimney is about 22', good draft, and if I want to look in the firebox all that is needed is to just the forced draft fan off, open the bypass damper, wait a few seconds, open the firebox door slowly, and look and/or reload. Really rare to get any smoke. The Tarm also has a sight glass on the gasifier chamber and you easily can check gasification at any time without opening the door. The sight glass does need cleaning regularly, though.

 

[Jersey Bill]

The ONLY reason I would consider an air system is if summer cooling is required. Being in the UP, I would guess that its not too important.

So then radiant or hot water baseboard is the way to go. Radiant will be a little more money, but it will be more efficient.

I think that in 10 or 20 years fossil fuel energy will cost a lot more than it does now, so an alternate fuel, or dual fuel, available to heat the house will be a larger value than it is today.

 

[Chris S]

I burned wood & coal ten years ago in another home. We had a Sime boiler. it was a wet based CI unit that could also be used for oil. AS I don't ever see on ementione here I assume they are no longet imported. I burned a lot of wood, but it was free & we kept the house at whatever temp we wanted.
After 6 years of that, and starting to think about a new home, I pulled it out and sold it. I didn't have the room for, or chimney to run 2 boilers side by side, and modcons were not on my radar yet. I sold my home with a fairly new & efficient oil system installed which is what buyers were accustomed to.
I sold the boiler for appprox. half of what it cost new & was happy with that.
I think from what I am reading that 20 years on one of these boilers may be ( hopefully the low end) of their life span, and at todays fuel cost labor aside it will be paid for in 2-4 years. I'm setting mine up with an oil back up, and will be happy to take it out and sell it down the road. I'm sure there will be buyers. Don't forget this is fairly a new market in the US and demand will bring new and better technology, different manufacturers, and added features. I I would gladly trade up in 5 years if a boiler that could truly modulate (such as a Vitloig) became available.
Burn on!!
Chris

 

[heaterman]

Hooo Boy........... Where to start? (I really can't believe there's a new house being constructed in Michigan)

First off, in new construction you'll have to deal with codes which require an automatically operated heat source. That eliminates using wood only. You'll have to have a boiler or furnace for backup. Check with you local AHJ to see what they will allow, sometimes just a gas fired space heater will satisfy the automatic requirement. Just remember that you're going to have to integrate your wood fired side into whatever else the state views as your "main" heat source.

There's another really good option in hydronic heat besides traditional baseboard and radiant and that is a panel radiator system. We install a lot of 'em. It is by far the least complicated type of hydronic system you can install when done right and supplies very nice heat. One customer said that if he had known how comfortable the variable heat from a panel rad was, he would have skipped the infloor in his new house. Go here www.hydronicalternatives.com to see a wide variety of shapes and sizes Look at the Radson line for basic European radiators. We distribute them here in Michigan. The piping for these is very simple to set up and the beautiful thing about a panel rad system is that where ever you have a rad you have a thermostat. These "thermostat's" modulate the water flow through the rad heating it up or letting it cool to match the room setting. In other words the output is proportional to the load of the room. That's the key to the comfort. The heat is not on/off but rather like cruise control on your car, just matching the load required to maintain the setting. PM me if you want more info.

My ideal system would be a wood boiler with a lot of storage, panel rads with maybe some underfloor tube for floor warming in the bath and kitchen. Control would consist of a weather responsive mixing valve that modulates that water temp based on how cold it is outside and a TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) on each rad. If the rads are sized correctly you would be able to fire your storage to 180-200 and then have usable heat all the way down to 120* or so. The bad part about a forced air or even a baseboard system is that those types of heat emitters require fairly hot water to provide usable amounts of heat. 140* is about as low as you can go and in severe weather you'd probably need 160+. This mandates firing more often due to the narrower "band" of operating temperatures.

That's enough for now, management is calling............

 

[atlarge54]

"Hooo Boy........... Where to start? (I really can’t believe there’s a new house being constructed in Michigan)" I couldn't agree more heaterman. Here in northern Indiana LOTS of empty homes and more to come on the market. It would be crazy to build and ever think about getting your money back. Homeownership not to be confused with homeloanership, is a life style decision and the WAF is a major consideration. Energy prices are entering a new realm as the rest of the world awakens and desires the american way of life. Americans may be forced to adopt drastic measures as our slice of the resource pie becomes slimmer. How many homes are built to take advantage of the changes of the suns angle from winter to summer? A large west window without shading can consume the output of many a/c units. Just placing living areas on the south side reduces lighting needs and can make living areas more pleasant. Sleeping areas belong on the north side and require minimum lighting. Roof overhangs and window heights can do a lot to allow winter sun and block summer sun. I imagine in the U.P. of Mich construction techniques are already pretty strong regarding energy use. When you try and fight the forces of nature eventually you'll lose. Kudos to you on the reduction in commuting miles and best of luck on your new endeavors. Sorry for the mini rant.

 

[Nofossil]

It's probably a good idea to do a sanity check on the finances. My sense is that wood will pay back many times over in 20 years, regardless of whether it's a selling point or not. You'll want at least a minimal backup heating system - maybe a small wall-mounted gas demand hot water heater could do the trick for both hot water and heat.

I've spent time with my EKO 25 getting the 'match-to-gasification' interval as low as possible. I'm running six minutes now, and my next challenge is to figure out how to get it to smoke less during those six minutes.

 

[lumbajac]

Eco users seem very satisfied, as do Tarm users, so just check Tarm out also. I burn almost exclusively dry pine slab wood from my sawmill in the gasifier, no creosote issue at all. Burn near 100% dry aspen in my wood stove, no creosote issue. Can't believe a creosote issue with aspen in a gasifier unless possibly it's green or really wet.

Regarding NG, most for US comes from Canada, and Canada demands for NG are rising considerably, supply is not dependable for the future. Also, NG cost will track with prices for alternative fuels, until scarcity drives it out of sight along with other petroleum prices.

Keep in mind on resale to leave room to possibly add a NG boiler in the future. A gasifier in series or parallel with another boiler is a reasonable option. Given the large infrastructure for NG, I suspect that a vapor gas fuel will remain available into the long future, probably a syn-gas of some type, but your guess is as good as mine on the price.

What tank arrangement are you planning for storage? I'm getting a used 1000 gal LP tank delivered on Tuesday for pressurized storage, to replace my 3 x 275 gallon old fuel oil tank open storage.

Comment on quick and easy fire starting with the gasifier are right on. Everyone develops his own technique. I can have my Tarm cold-started, gasifying, and fully loaded within 5-10 minutes, then just walk away and let it do its job.

No objection to a draft inducer, but I have no need for one. My chimney is about 22', good draft, and if I want to look in the firebox all that is needed is to just the forced draft fan off, open the bypass damper, wait a few seconds, open the firebox door slowly, and look and/or reload. Really rare to get any smoke. The Tarm also has a sight glass on the gasifier chamber and you easily can check gasification at any time without opening the door. The sight glass does need cleaning regularly, though.

Jim,

Good thoughts about natural gas futures. It sounds like your experience with the Tarm is excellent and what kind of experience I would like to replicate. As far as water storage, I am not sure yet. I am not too familiar with water storage other than it sounds like 1000 gallons is the way to go... will need to research this further.

Thanks,
lumbajac

 

[lumbajac]

"Hooo Boy........... Where to start? (I really can’t believe there’s a new house being constructed in Michigan)" I couldn't agree more heaterman. Here in northern Indiana LOTS of empty homes and more to come on the market. It would be crazy to build and ever think about getting your money back. Homeownership not to be confused with homeloanership, is a life style decision and the WAF is a major consideration. Energy prices are entering a new realm as the rest of the world awakens and desires the american way of life. Americans may be forced to adopt drastic measures as our slice of the resource pie becomes slimmer. How many homes are built to take advantage of the changes of the suns angle from winter to summer? A large west window without shading can consume the output of many a/c units. Just placing living areas on the south side reduces lighting needs and can make living areas more pleasant. Sleeping areas belong on the north side and require minimum lighting. Roof overhangs and window heights can do a lot to allow winter sun and block summer sun. I imagine in the U.P. of Mich construction techniques are already pretty strong regarding energy use. When you try and fight the forces of nature eventually you'll lose. Kudos to you on the reduction in commuting miles and best of luck on your new endeavors. Sorry for the mini rant.

Hoosier,

Thanks for the reply. I have oriented most bedrooms to due North. Living room and kitchen face due South with significant amount of glass. An enclosed porch is due North to buffer against our cold NorthWest winter winds. Probably going to do my basement with ICF's. All in all, I wouldn't call this an entirely green home, but I've considered energy conservation measures extensively with my plans... water conservation is high on my list as well.

Thanks again,
lumbajac

 

[lumbajac]

It's probably a good idea to do a sanity check on the finances. My sense is that wood will pay back many times over in 20 years, regardless of whether it's a selling point or not. You'll want at least a minimal backup heating system - maybe a small wall-mounted gas demand hot water heater could do the trick for both hot water and heat.

I've spent time with my EKO 25 getting the 'match-to-gasification' interval as low as possible. I'm running six minutes now, and my next challenge is to figure out how to get it to smoke less during those six minutes.

Good stuff - I've already purchased a used Jotul 600 free-standing gas fireplace. My cousin used it to heat his old 1900 sq.ft. home... this was his only heat source and it worked great for him. This unit will serve as my backup heat and as a nice focul point to our living room. The unit does not require electricity to operate so will also serve as a good back up in case of power outages.

Thanks,
lumbajac

 

[Eric Johnson]

I just want to second Jersey Bill's point that in 10 or 20 years, I think it's fair to expect that alternative heat fueled with a locally-available resource should be worth a lot more than it is today. What better place to have wood heat than the U-P? I won't be surprised if 20 years from now, everybody in the UP has some sort of wood heat.

 

[lumbajac]

I just want to second Jersey Bill's point that in 10 or 20 years, I think it's fair to expect that alternative heat fueled with a locally-available resource should be worth a lot more than it is today. What better place to have wood heat than the U-P? I won't be surprised if 20 years from now, everybody in the UP has some sort of wood heat.

I would go as far as saying that at least 1 in 4 homes in my part of the U.P. uses wood heat as either a primary heat source or as a supplement. Additionally, we have had 3 pellet stove and supply businesses start up within our immediate area in the past 4 or 5 years and they are busy. Within the last year we have had an anthracite coal and stove business start up as well. Additonally, our state governor and legislators are starting to really tout Michigan as an alternative energy/fuels state.

Thanks,
lumbajac

 

[lumbajac]

I'm sure you'll get a lot more responses on this one, but here's my opinion.
We call furnaces scorched air heat, and I don't sell them to me customers
Having lived with radiant heat- how could you possibly consider anything else.

Yes you can buy a lot of HVAC for 10,000 but with the increasing cost of fuel (s) I think buying the most efficient equipment you can afford ( or even borrow to own) makes more sense now than ever.

I haven't installed mine yet- I'm also in the process of building a new home, and having seen 5 gasifiers recently , I'm also buying an EKO

Good luck with your new home
Chris

Chris - you say you've seen 5 gasifiers recently. I'm assuming the EKO was most impressive to you or what you're looking for in a gasifier... is this a correct assumption? Why do you plan on purchasing an EKO over others such as Tarm, Econoburn, etc?

Thanks,
lumbajac

 

[Chris S]

We went through this in another thread- last month. Long & Short of it- I made a 400 mile day trip to the NYS farm show... Eric was there too I missed him by a day. I originally was considering EKO, Tarm, Woodgun, Greenwood & Econoburn- I may have missed one. My take on it is this>..
I'm in the construction industry, and we also install boilers. Greenwood calls their unit a furnace, and that scared me to start with, then I started reading about customer service & cracks in the refractory, so I wrote them off. Tarm & Woodgun I looked at locally years ago. Econoburn appears to be a copy of the EKO, not in the field a long time- the factory rep would not tell me how many are in service( thats a trade secret) but touted the stoutness of their handle. I've heard they have some problems in the rear tubes- but would'nt totally discount them- they're built by a good company who I believe will stand behind their product.
I talked with MArk from AHONA (.com) who was extremely knowledgeable, has customers burning these units etc. I feel very comforatble with the EKO product, have found no negative comments on these pages, and believe the support is there as issues arrive.
AS I posted previously. Find a venue in your area, our was the NYS farm show where representatives for thes companies will be and walk from vendoe to vendor, and you'll make the best decision for you. Travel if you have to, it'll be worth the time & money.
Lastly read as much as you can here. People are happy to tell you when they're happy & just as fast to let you know of a problem.
Good Luck
Chris

 

[Bob Rohr]

I'd spend lots of time on the construction and setting of the home. Passive solar would be high on y list. No moving parts!

As would the most efficient construction, including windows you can find. Consider an average home may require 20- 25 btu/ square foot, shoot for a design that could be heated with 10 BTU/ sq ft.

When you have the load calc in hand then it's time to consider heating options. You may be surprised to see loads so low that little additional heat would be needed above typical internal gains.

Certainly an active solar for DHW preheat and possible heat load.

Central air would be a good idea for resell?? Check with real estate folks on that. It may be hard to sell without central air someday.

If you go with wood consider gas or electric back up.

I'm looking hard at small cogen units. we get ice storms here on a yearly basis. Be nice to have some power and heat from a generator.

Local energy costs may help you decide if geo thermal is an option. Heat, cooling, and DHW is very possible from some holes in the ground.

The choices border on mind boggling these days.

hr

 

[lumbajac]

Hooo Boy........... Where to start? (I really can't believe there's a new house being constructed in Michigan)

First off, in new construction you'll have to deal with codes which require an automatically operated heat source. That eliminates using wood only. You'll have to have a boiler or furnace for backup. Check with you local AHJ to see what they will allow, sometimes just a gas fired space heater will satisfy the automatic requirement. Just remember that you're going to have to integrate your wood fired side into whatever else the state views as your "main" heat source.

There's another really good option in hydronic heat besides traditional baseboard and radiant and that is a panel radiator system. We install a lot of 'em. It is by far the least complicated type of hydronic system you can install when done right and supplies very nice heat. One customer said that if he had known how comfortable the variable heat from a panel rad was, he would have skipped the infloor in his new house. Go here www.hydronicalternatives.com to see a wide variety of shapes and sizes Look at the Radson line for basic European radiators. We distribute them here in Michigan. The piping for these is very simple to set up and the beautiful thing about a panel rad system is that where ever you have a rad you have a thermostat. These "thermostat's" modulate the water flow through the rad heating it up or letting it cool to match the room setting. In other words the output is proportional to the load of the room. That's the key to the comfort. The heat is not on/off but rather like cruise control on your car, just matching the load required to maintain the setting. PM me if you want more info.

My ideal system would be a wood boiler with a lot of storage, panel rads with maybe some underfloor tube for floor warming in the bath and kitchen. Control would consist of a weather responsive mixing valve that modulates that water temp based on how cold it is outside and a TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) on each rad. If the rads are sized correctly you would be able to fire your storage to 180-200 and then have usable heat all the way down to 120* or so. The bad part about a forced air or even a baseboard system is that those types of heat emitters require fairly hot water to provide usable amounts of heat. 140* is about as low as you can go and in severe weather you'd probably need 160+. This mandates firing more often due to the narrower "band" of operating temperatures.

That's enough for now, management is calling............

Heaterman - I have a Jotul 600 free-standing gas fireplace as my backup heat. I'm told it will suffice for backup by my insurance carrier and by other contractors... I'll have to get the ultimate word from our local inspector.

I checked out the radiant panels you mention at hydronic alternatives. They look good and I like the thermostatic radiator valve. I'm thinking for me that infloor radiant in the basement slab, infloor radiant on the first floor, and radiant panels on the second floor would be a good option for my new home. The first floor will be tile and hardwood. Second floor will be all carpeting... second floor is mostly bedrooms and a family room. Only thing is it would be nice to have a programmable thermostat ramp down the heat supply to the whole house during the day when all are at work or at school. I'm assuming you can't do this with the radiant panels?

Any suggestions to offer for first floor in-floor radiant with mostly tile and hardwood? There seem to be a lot of new products for holding up the pex tubing under the subfloor including hydronic alternatives track system. The thermalboard seems to be another interesting option, but having to put another layer of board over the thermalboard for tile or stone applications seems to defeat the purpose some... might as well staple the pex to the bottom of your subfloor if your goign to cover it up with more plywood, no?

Thanks,
lumbajac

 

[Bob Rohr]

Hooo Boy........... Where to start? (I really can't believe there's a new house being constructed in Michigan)

First off, in new construction you'll have to deal with codes which require an automatically operated heat source. That eliminates using wood only. You'll have to have a boiler or furnace for backup. Check with you local AHJ to see what they will allow, sometimes just a gas fired space heater will satisfy the automatic requirement. Just remember that you're going to have to integrate your wood fired side into whatever else the state views as your "main" heat source.

There's another really good option in hydronic heat besides traditional baseboard and radiant and that is a panel radiator system. We install a lot of 'em. It is by far the least complicated type of hydronic system you can install when done right and supplies very nice heat. One customer said that if he had known how comfortable the variable heat from a panel rad was, he would have skipped the infloor in his new house. Go here www.hydronicalternatives.com to see a wide variety of shapes and sizes Look at the Radson line for basic European radiators. We distribute them here in Michigan. The piping for these is very simple to set up and the beautiful thing about a panel rad system is that where ever you have a rad you have a thermostat. These "thermostat's" modulate the water flow through the rad heating it up or letting it cool to match the room setting. In other words the output is proportional to the load of the room. That's the key to the comfort. The heat is not on/off but rather like cruise control on your car, just matching the load required to maintain the setting. PM me if you want more info.

My ideal system would be a wood boiler with a lot of storage, panel rads with maybe some underfloor tube for floor warming in the bath and kitchen. Control would consist of a weather responsive mixing valve that modulates that water temp based on how cold it is outside and a TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) on each rad. If the rads are sized correctly you would be able to fire your storage to 180-200 and then have usable heat all the way down to 120* or so. The bad part about a forced air or even a baseboard system is that those types of heat emitters require fairly hot water to provide usable amounts of heat. 140* is about as low as you can go and in severe weather you'd probably need 160+. This mandates firing more often due to the narrower "band" of operating temperatures.

That's enough for now, management is calling............

Heaterman - I have a Jotul 600 free-standing gas fireplace as my backup heat. I'm told it will suffice for backup by my insurance carrier and by other contractors... I'll have to get the ultimate word from our local inspector.

I checked out the radiant panels you mention at hydronic alternatives. They look good and I like the thermostatic radiator valve. I'm thinking for me that infloor radiant in the basement slab, infloor radiant on the first floor, and radiant panels on the second floor would be a good option for my new home. The first floor will be tile and hardwood. Second floor will be all carpeting... second floor is mostly bedrooms and a family room. Only thing is it would be nice to have a programmable thermostat ramp down the heat supply to the whole house during the day when all are at work or at school. I'm assuming you can't do this with the radiant panels?

Any suggestions to offer for first floor in-floor radiant with mostly tile and hardwood? There seem to be a lot of new products for holding up the pex tubing under the subfloor including hydronic alternatives track system. The thermalboard seems to be another interesting option, but having to put another layer of board over the thermalboard for tile or stone applications seems to defeat the purpose some... might as well staple the pex to the bottom of your subfloor if your goign to cover it up with more plywood, no?

Thanks,
lumbajac

Look at radiant products that install with an aluminum surface for excellent conductive transfer. Warmboard makes a 4X8 stuctural panel. Hardwood nails right over it. Tile would require a cementious backerboar over it. I like the Roth foam panels with an aluminum layer. An over the top product with excellent heat transfer, and a small r value from the foam. Thicker aluminum transfers the heat outward better then the foil covered products. you really get what you pay for with the heavier aluminum.

Outdoor reset control watch and adjust your system supply temperatures based on outdoor temperature. Consider the type with indoor and outdoor feedback for excellent results.

Not to deep on the setback, maybe 5 degrees.

Heimeier, one of the largest TRV manufacturers in the world has a clever setback timer for TRVs. Battery powered, about 5 years on two double AAs.

The key is to design you system to operate at the lowest possible temperatures. This invites thermal solar interface.

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[heaterman]

RE: Setback, radiant combination systems, under floor vs above floor radiant and all that happy stuff.

First let me go back a step and reinforce what's already been said about the building envelope. Every dollar you invest in "extra" insulation, best grade windows and doors, sealing to eliminate air infiltration etc. will be returned many times over. The net effect is that all of your heating and/or AC system component can be smaller, your system will require less water flow and therefore less pump and comfort will be improved.

Setback with a master thermostat or other control can easily be done. The exact method will be determined by the type of system you ultimately choose. Suffice to say that a thermostat can be connected to the main circ for the system and it can shut down all circulation to drop the temp. Another way is to incorporate a smart control that will vary the water temp to accomplish the same thing. When you hit the setback period the mixing device will drop the water temp going to your system and lower the heat output in that way. Circulation still stays on but at lower temp. Some folks I have done this for say they can drop temps further and still remain comfortable.

An above floor system such as Climate Panel or Thermo Board will give you much faster response than an underfloor type system. It will also work well with much lower water temps than you would need with tube under the floor. As I said before, designing your system to work with lower water temps can really increase its usefulness (incorporating solar) and lengthen the amount of time between firing the boiler. I know a guy with a 24 year old Garn that has a couple solar panels hooked up to it. He told me that the panels alone will keep the 1,250 gallons of water at 100-110* all summer without ever building a fire in the Garn itself. This allows him to heat nearly all of his domestic hot water and a hot tub for almost no cost at all.

As far as resale value of your home goes, I am already getting questions from folks considering buying a home and calling me to get an idea of heating costs and what shape the heating system is in. I think that we will see the energy requirements of a structure become a top priority of buyers within the very near future. Probably within the next two years. LP and fuel oil prices are through the roof and natural gas will not be far behind. Any extra investment you make in alternative energy and/or reduction of the energy required will be worth a bunch to a future home buyer. Banks are even starting to get the picture because they know that if a home owner is spending $6-800 a month for heating costs, that's money not available to pay the mortgage. The tide is beginning to turn and we are facing a major sea change in how people view energy costs associated with a given structure.

 

[lumbajac]

Hooo Boy........... Where to start? (I really can't believe there's a new house being constructed in Michigan)

First off, in new construction you'll have to deal with codes which require an automatically operated heat source. That eliminates using wood only. You'll have to have a boiler or furnace for backup. Check with you local AHJ to see what they will allow, sometimes just a gas fired space heater will satisfy the automatic requirement. Just remember that you're going to have to integrate your wood fired side into whatever else the state views as your "main" heat source.

There's another really good option in hydronic heat besides traditional baseboard and radiant and that is a panel radiator system. We install a lot of 'em. It is by far the least complicated type of hydronic system you can install when done right and supplies very nice heat. One customer said that if he had known how comfortable the variable heat from a panel rad was, he would have skipped the infloor in his new house. Go here www.hydronicalternatives.com to see a wide variety of shapes and sizes Look at the Radson line for basic European radiators. We distribute them here in Michigan. The piping for these is very simple to set up and the beautiful thing about a panel rad system is that where ever you have a rad you have a thermostat. These "thermostat's" modulate the water flow through the rad heating it up or letting it cool to match the room setting. In other words the output is proportional to the load of the room. That's the key to the comfort. The heat is not on/off but rather like cruise control on your car, just matching the load required to maintain the setting. PM me if you want more info.

My ideal system would be a wood boiler with a lot of storage, panel rads with maybe some underfloor tube for floor warming in the bath and kitchen. Control would consist of a weather responsive mixing valve that modulates that water temp based on how cold it is outside and a TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) on each rad. If the rads are sized correctly you would be able to fire your storage to 180-200 and then have usable heat all the way down to 120* or so. The bad part about a forced air or even a baseboard system is that those types of heat emitters require fairly hot water to provide usable amounts of heat. 140* is about as low as you can go and in severe weather you'd probably need 160+. This mandates firing more often due to the narrower "band" of operating temperatures.

That's enough for now, management is calling............

Heaterman - I have a Jotul 600 free-standing gas fireplace as my backup heat. I'm told it will suffice for backup by my insurance carrier and by other contractors... I'll have to get the ultimate word from our local inspector.

I checked out the radiant panels you mention at hydronic alternatives. They look good and I like the thermostatic radiator valve. I'm thinking for me that infloor radiant in the basement slab, infloor radiant on the first floor, and radiant panels on the second floor would be a good option for my new home. The first floor will be tile and hardwood. Second floor will be all carpeting... second floor is mostly bedrooms and a family room. Only thing is it would be nice to have a programmable thermostat ramp down the heat supply to the whole house during the day when all are at work or at school. I'm assuming you can't do this with the radiant panels?

Any suggestions to offer for first floor in-floor radiant with mostly tile and hardwood? There seem to be a lot of new products for holding up the pex tubing under the subfloor including hydronic alternatives track system. The thermalboard seems to be another interesting option, but having to put another layer of board over the thermalboard for tile or stone applications seems to defeat the purpose some... might as well staple the pex to the bottom of your subfloor if your goign to cover it up with more plywood, no?

Thanks,
lumbajac

Look at radiant products that install with an aluminum surface for excellent conductive transfer. Warmboard makes a 4X8 stuctural panel. Hardwood nails right over it. Tile would require a cementious backerboar over it. I like the Roth foam panels with an aluminum layer. An over the top product with excellent heat transfer, and a small r value from the foam. Thicker aluminum transfers the heat outward better then the foil covered products. you really get what you pay for with the heavier aluminum.

Outdoor reset control watch and adjust your system supply temperatures based on outdoor temperature. Consider the type with indoor and outdoor feedback for excellent results.

Not to deep on the setback, maybe 5 degrees.

Heimeier, one of the largest TRV manufacturers in the world has a clever setback timer for TRVs. Battery powered, about 5 years on two double AAs.

The key is to design you system to operate at the lowest possible temperatures. This invites thermal solar interface.

hr

Heaterman and/or others,

Any more information regarding the Heimeier setback timer, Radson radiant panels, and Roth foam/aluminium in-floor underlayment? I'm having difficulties finding more information on the web... who sells each, price, warranties, quality, etc? I've got the basics from www.hydronicalternatives.com but am looking for more information if available, first-hand experiences, etc.

Thanks,
lumbajac

 

[Bob Rohr]

www.heatlines.com is a good place to shop for panel rads and those Heimier products. Go to the Roth website to find a dealer near you. I use Avco out of PA for Roth panels. ask for Steve "Wheels" 215 949 1550

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[FishHawk 210CC]

You may want to look at a woodgun from alternative heating. They have an oil / gas burner option which would satisfy your need for an automatic heating system. They claim 85% eff on fossil fuels as well as wood which is as good as a stand alone oil boiler.