New house needs a Jotul - I think

[jotul8e2]

We are in the ongoing process of completing a new house. We live in the middle of 50 acres of oak and hickory, so supplies are not a problem. I have been burning stoves for about 30 years (my beloved old Efel, the Hearthstone we used for decades, and lately a Duchwest Large cat that is heating my shop), so I know some of the ins and outs. I do not profess to be an expert, however, particularly with the new secondary burn stoves.

The house is a full basement, 1900 sq. ft of more or less open floorplan on the main level, and another 600 sq. ft. upstairs. The flue is installed and is just about dead center in the main level. I designed the house to be eneregy efficient, so it has fewer windows that are the norm today, six inch fiberlass-filled walls, with another one inch of foam on the outside, and about r-60 in the attic. Our climate is lower mid-west - not far north of Springfield, Missouri. The design seems to be working - my Jan. electric bill (we are all electric) was only $130, even after the coldest Jan. in many years.

Ok, I know the payback on a stove is terrible for me. I might save $70 or $80 a month, six months a year. But that's not the point, is it? I like wood burning stoves. I want to be warm even when the power goes down. I like splitting wood with an ax. You all will understand, I am sure.

I keep looking, but I keep coming back to Jotul - either the 500 or the 600. I intend to burn 24/7 for at least four months a year, so soapstone seemed feasible as well. We like the Hearthstone Heritage, and certainly had no complaints about the longevity of the old one (it stayed with the house, and is still there, I assume), but the new ones no longer have a true ashpan! Just a sort of built-in scoop! In fact, I see by these forums that most people shovel out the ashes from the firebox. Man, I just cannot see it. The mess, the necessity to let the coals burn down, the mess, the inconvenience, the mess... am I missing something here? Then I looked at the Woodstock Fireview - people seem to just love them. But again - no ashpan at all! And 16" maximum log length - the one thing I didn't like about the old Efel way back when. If there is something important that I need to know, I'm listening.

Several others were non-starters - PE for its front-only loading (my hearth configuration really needs a side door. On the left, if possible, but a side door for sure). Welded steel stoves just don't do it for me.

So I keep coming back to the Jotul. The looks are ok. Takes nice long logs. No cat, which I THINK I would prefer. Good size ash pan which I can carry out back and dump. People seem to be generally happy with them. We have a dealer reasonably close. But if there is a fallacy in my thinking, please set me straight.

Thanks, Mark

 

[begreen]

Welcome Mark. It sounds like you have done your homework. It seems like the F600 would work fine for you. Another stove to look at might be the Quadrafire Isle Royale or the Morso 3610.

Is the house heated with a heat pump or just baseboard heaters right now? What is your electric rate?

 

[Genex]

I am two months into a Jotul F400 which I bought on the lure of secondary burning. I am sure I will get to secondary burning nirvana with some help form this forum but have not seen much of it yet. My installer suggested yesterday that secondary burning is something that you see most often in the brochure. Do not get me wrong, I love it for its quality, looks and ease of use but compared to the much cheaper and smaller enammeled steel and concrete stove I had previously, it's not streets ahead if I had to be objective. I am hoping that over time as I become better acquainted with the Jotul that I will change my mind, but that is where I am today.

 

[jotul8e2]

My only heat source currently is one of the new Carrier 18 SEER forced air heat pumps (with a backup electric element, of course) with two speed compressor as well as a two speed circulating fan. Very quiet - we seldom notice it come on.

I believe I have read all the posts in the archives concerning the Jotul 500 and 600, and of course, all the reviews. My perception is that secondary burn is not a widespread problem when there is a good flue and draft, and good wood, of course. Am I mistaken? Are many of you having problems with secondary burns? I should think that secondary burn designs would produce inordinate amounts of creosote if not functioning.

I expect to have a good draft. I installed about 24' of 6" Excel chiminey straight up through the attic, then into a chase above the roofline, exiting a good 30" above the peak of the roof. The stove outlet should set directly under the flue without a bend anywhere, and I will feed the stove with outside air directly.

I have no experience at all with secondary burn stoves, and am only in my second season with a cat stove.

Mark

 

[jbrown56]

Hi I have had my stove for about three months after using a steel box stove for 26 years and I love the new stove. I heat 2100 sq. ft., 24/7, open concept floor plan with cathedral ceilings on the second floor. The stove is centrally located. load the stove at 10p and at 7a there are still plenty of coals to get the fire going again. I have the furnace thermostat set at 66* and only on nights when the temps drop below 0* does the furnace come on in the early morning. Temps in the house run 68* to 74*. I started burning in mid Oct and have burned only two cord so far. More heat with less wood and the secondary burn is spectacular. I also installed a 6" ss rigid liner into my 8 x 12 clay flue and it greatly improved the draft and the performance of the stove. Oh, did I say I love my new stove! Hope this helps.

Jim

 

[jbrown56]

Mark, Sorry to be a pest. I also looked at the 600 and didn't like the handle set up. I also read that the double front doors could be a problem as they didn't close tightly. It would've been too much stove for this house. The ash pan on the 500 works well and we empty it every three days.

Jim

 

[yukiginger]

Mark, I love your thinking. I heat with an insert (I am in western NY) and dealing with the ashes is an absolute pain,especially as I am trying to heat exclusively with it so letting it burn out to empty ashes is inconvenient. I think you are on the right track with your preferences. They would be mine if I had to do it all over.

MarkG

 

[begreen]

My only heat source currently is one of the new Carrier 18 SEER forced air heat pumps (with a backup electric element, of course) with two speed compressor as well as a two speed circulating fan. Very quiet - we seldom notice it come on.

I believe I have read all the posts in the archives concerning the Jotul 500 and 600, and of course, all the reviews. My perception is that secondary burn is not a widespread problem when there is a good flue and draft, and good wood, of course. Am I mistaken? Are many of you having problems with secondary burns? I should think that secondary burn designs would produce inordinate amounts of creosote if not functioning.

I expect to have a good draft. I installed about 24' of 6" Excel chiminey straight up through the attic, then into a chase above the roofline, exiting a good 30" above the peak of the roof. The stove outlet should set directly under the flue without a bend anywhere, and I will feed the stove with outside air directly.

I have no experience at all with secondary burn stoves, and am only in my second season with a cat stove.

Mark

Your heating setup is similar to ours. The reason I asked about your electric rates was to get a handle on how much of your electric bill goes towards heating. That will help with sizing the stove. Have you compared say June consumption to this December's? Judging by the well insulated house, it seems like the F500 might cover at least 75-80% of the house's heating needs. The F600 would have more reserve for long burns on those really cold nights when it gets into the teens.

The flue sounds first class. If there is a draft issue, it would be one of too much draft with that setup. Fortunately this can easily be solved with a draft damper if it is an issue.

 

[jotul8e2]

Your heating setup is similar to ours. The reason I asked about your electric rates was to get a handle on how much of your electric bill goes towards heating. That will help with sizing the stove. Have you compared say June consumption to this December's? Judging by the well insulated house, it seems like the F500 might cover at least 75-80% of the house's heating needs.

It takes about 400 kwh to run the laundry, lights, cooking appliances, well pump, water heater, etc., when we are neither heating or cooling. So I used maybe 1000 kwh in Jan. to heat the house to 68 deg. But this is a high efficiency heat pump, and I don't have any idea how to make the conversion to btu output.

Your take on the 500 vs. 600 is almost exactly the conclusion I had made. I really like the idea of the large firebox in the 600, and I even like the handle setup - although I think it may have been changed to be similar to the 500. On the other hand, it appears that my heating btu requirements are small for a house this size, and the 500 does have the door on the "correct" side.

Good or bad, I appreciate the opinions. And if someone wants to talk me into a Hearthstone, I will certainly listen.

Thanks again.

Mark

 

[TheFlame]

Here is something else about the Oslo that I've never seen mentioned. You can actually fit a 24" log into the stove through the side door and have it close properly. This is not 24" on an angle, it's 24" straight in. This has come in handy when I end up scrounging a long piece that I don't feel like cutting. You can't fill the firebox with 24" logs, one 9" or so round would probably be the biggest you could do at 24".

 

[ControlFreak]

Hey, MarkG,

You wrote: "dealing with the ashes is an absolute pain,especially as I am trying to heat exclusively with it so letting it burn out to empty ashes is inconvenient."

Why is this such a big deal? You shouldn't be burning down to nothing, you need to be keeping a good amount of hot coals to start your next fire. Try this: Take one of those cheap shovels that often come with a bucket. Drill 1/2" holes all over it to turn it into a screen. Then shake the shovel along the pile of coals on the bottom of the stove. The ashes drop through the shovel, but the coals stay on top. The forward/backward motion of the shovel pulls the ashes forward and the coals backward. Then it's easy to shovel out the (mostly) dead ash. Then bring the coals to the front, load it up and you're off to go.

Maybe this helps....

Dan

 

[ansehnlich1]

I think our place is about 2100 sq. feet. It's all one floor except a bonus room above the garage. So, maybe 1800 sq. feet on the main floor. New construction, insulated well, including basement walls.

Anyway, we have the Oslo in the living room. It'll heat the whole place no problem. Now, when it's 20 degrees F. and below, especially if it's windy, the heat pump for the master bedroom/bath will come on, we set it at 65 degrees F. The master bedroom area is around the corner from the main floorplan layout and the woodstove heat doesn't travel back around there so easy. But if it's 30 degrees or above it ain't no problem.

The Oslo puts out some serious heat when she's fired up good, I run it up to 600 or 650 degrees F. on the stove top thermometer, then shut the air to half, then after a short time shut it to a quarter open or so, maybe a wee bit less, and it'll cruise there for 4 or 5 hours or so. I alway have serious coals in the morning. I've only lit the thing a couple times so far this season, basically run it 24/7.

The oil furnace never kicks in at all. I ran it a couple hours a few weeks back just to make sure it worked

Easy to get 80 degrees F. plus in the main part of the home, high 70's if its real frigid outside, like in the teens and windy.

burning white oak, black locust, apple, white ash, black cherry, black walnut, boxelder, red cedar, elm, red oak, sycamore, sheesh, did I forget anything?

 

[kjklosek]

Sounds like the 500 may be a bit too small for your place even with the good insulation. Although you really may not be pushing the stove hard until the really cold nights.

I heat about 1400 sqft in a poorly built uninsulated house in central VA with the Oslo. Not too terribly cold, but the power does go out frequently and it is not uncommon to have temps into the single digits.

The 500 really is a good heater. I have mine set up with 6' of double wall stove pipe into 10' of class A chimney on the inside of the house. Certainly no draft issues.

As others have stated, the firebox is big enough for over night burns with plenty of coals left in the morning to re-start. On some of the warmer evenings, above 30 degrees F, I will load the stove about 2/3 full at 10:00 pm and still be able to start a morning fire at 7:00 am from the coals.
I am burning oak and apple.

My house has electric baseboard heat and the stove saves me about $100 - $150 a month in heating. I burn from late Oct. through March.

I would probably go with the 600 just for the added size in case of a power outage or some other unforseen circumstance.

How far along is the construction? Is it too late to consider a masonry heater?

J.P.

 

[jotul8e2]

Hey, MarkG,

You wrote: "dealing with the ashes is an absolute pain,especially as I am trying to heat exclusively with it so letting it burn out to empty ashes is inconvenient."

Dan

Actually, that was yukiginger who said that. But it pretty much sums up my concern. I'm currently shoveling ashes out of my Dutchwest (shop stove) ash pan into a small ash can (I know, buy a bigger ash can - I keep forgetting when in town) and I get ashes everywhere. With past stoves, I just take the entire pan outside and have no problem at all.

Sounds like the 500 may be a bit too small for your place even with the good insulation. Although you really may not be pushing the stove hard until the really cold nights...

I would probably go with the 600 just for the added size in case of a power outage or some other unforseen circumstance.

How far along is the construction? Is it too late to consider a masonry heater?

J.P.

I could, theoretically, do a masonry heater, and have long been fascinated by them. But, with no contractor or experienced mason anywhere near, I did not really consider it an option. I would love to have a house built around a kachelofen.

I am leaning toward the F500. I am heating a 2200 sq. ft. shop building with an old Dutchwest cat rated at 31,000 btu. It is the sole source of heat and will maintain 65 deg. in any conditions I've seen these past two years. The house is a little larger, with more windows, but is much tighter (the shop has a 5' double steel door and a full size garage door filling most of one wall), with more insulation. And the house has some heat sources: oven, range, dryer, water heater, curling iron, etc., while the shop has nothing. If the output of the F500 is anwhere near the 70,000 btu rated, it will have more than twice the output of the Dutchwest and I can't help but think it will heat our 2500 sq. ft. house.

But I've sure been considering the F600 for the very reason you cite. The one joker in the deck is the 1900 sq. ft. of basement. It's 60 deg. year round down there. Sure, heat rises, but that is a lot of concrete and I wonder if it will behave as a heat sink?

Mark

 

[WOODBUTCHER]

I am two months into a Jotul F400 which I bought on the lure of secondary burning. I am sure I will get to secondary burning nirvana with some help form this forum but have not seen much of it yet. My installer suggested yesterday that secondary burning is something that you see most often in the brochure. Do not get me wrong, I love it for its quality, looks and ease of use but compared to the much cheaper and smaller enammeled steel and concrete stove I had previously, it's not streets ahead if I had to be objective. I am hoping that over time as I become better acquainted with the Jotul that I will change my mind, but that is where I am today.

I can't believe your installer said "secondary burning is something that you see most often in the brochure" WOW!
What temps are you running before damping down your F400?

WoodButcher

 

[ansehnlich1]

The one joker in the deck is the 1900 sq. ft. of basement. It's 60 deg. year round down there. Sure, heat rises, but that is a lot of concrete and I wonder if it will behave as a heat sink?

Mark

We insulated our entire basement when we built our home. I am convinced if you do the same it would improve your situation dramatically. Our Oslo is NOT in the basement, but the loss of heat through uninsulated concrete walls is pretty significant.....and we have a LOT of concrete

 

[ansehnlich1]

You know Mark, you might want to consider the F600. Or maybe even the Hearthstone Mansfield. I misread you original post, and see your place is 2500 sq. ft. I don't think you'd have a problem with either of these larger stoves. Just my humble opinion. I'm certain if I had the F600 sitting on my hearth right now it would NOT be a problem. I'd be able to load larger loads and have a longer burn.

The reason I went with the Oslo was the stove design and construction. I felt confident the door design was better than the F600, and the Oslo ash pan is nice.....though I do empty the ash pan DAILY!

 

[jotul8e2]

I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond. It has been very helpful.

Concerning the basement: it is insulated with 1 1/2 inches of foam on the outside, glued in place before we backfilled. I think that is why it stays a near constant 60 deg. year round. My feeling, and it is just a feeling, is that the basement can be ignored. I base that largely on the relatively short time it takes to bring the house back up to temperature with the heat pump each morning.

As much as I'd like to like the Hearthstone, their ashpan is almost entirely decorative. I have a pretty good idea that as ham-handed as I am I'd have ashes everywhere.

That still leaves me with 2500 sq. ft. to heat. But only 1900 of that is on the main level. And the house is very well insulated. And ours is not a particularly cold climate. What to do, what to do....

For some inexplicable reason, the dealer will not allow me to bring one home to try out for a few months. [That's a joke for you litteral-minded people. Send SASE for full explaination]

Mark

 

[begreen]

Get what you think you will like the best Mark. Try it for a year or two. If you set things up right so that another stove can replace it if this decision is not ideal, no big deal. With the dollar dropping, you might find your stove worth more in two years than it is today. As long as the stove is kept in good condition, it's not going to lose a lot of value.

Based on your current heating load, I think you'll cover the majority of your heating needs with a 2-2.5 cu ft stove, be it cast iron or soapstone. If you want an insurance policy for those very cold nights, go for a 3 cu ft stove. There are several good choices, so it comes down to lifestyle, aesthetics and having a good local dealer.

PS: I love hearing folks insulating right from the get go. You've done well. Warm floors are nice .

 

[FLASHMAN]

I'm on my second year with a 600, and I love it. I have it in the basement, with 4 of those little corner fans moving the heat around, a 30k BTU reclaimer, and floor vents allowing it upstairs. I live in an L-shaped ranch that totals 3780 Square feet, of which 2835 is finished.

That said, since the stove is in the unfinished part of the basement, I heat it all...

During the day, with an outside temp of 6 degrees, with the stove cranking 525-575 temp on top, I can EASILY maintain 72-74 degrees in the coldest parts of the house, as long as the sun is out. (the sunroom helps the upstairs immensely.)

When the sun goes down, if it's still that cold, I can maintain less than a 10 degree loss overnight in the coldest, highest heat loss part of the house. (also the sunroom).

Both of these conditions exist in a house that was built in the mid 70's, with insulation that is period consistent. Also, 2 rooms on the main floor have cathedral ceilings, the kitchen, which is 16X24, and the sunroom, which is 12X32.

One thing to know, the Firelight is a BEAST of a stove that puts out a TON of heat, and the secondaries are beautiful to watch. I don't know what the guy who said that secondaries are something you only see in a brochure is talking about, but I think his dealer is talking out of school, or was maybe trying to sell him another product.

Only thing you may have to consider is because your house is so tight, you may have to add an outside air kit to feed it.

The configuration of the front doors, (french door double), has not been an issue for me, and my doors close nice and tight.

One thing you do want to make sure when emptying the ashpan though. If you're doing it while burning, make sure you open the front or side doors while you have the ashpan door open, otherwise you'll end up with a blast furnace going by the time you get the ashpan back in...

All in all. GREAT stove, just make sure you need a LOT of heat...

 

[jotul8e2]

We have a somewhat larger house - 5,000 sq. ft., including the basement. But we will only be heating about 2500 of that. The basement stays 60 deg., and it does not appear to draw any significant heat from the heated areas. And I deliberately did not make any cathedral ceilings.

I will certainly be installing an outside air supply. In fact, that was part of the original construction design process.

My conclusion is that the 500 Oslo will probably supply all our heat except in the very coldest of conditions and that the 600 would need to be dampered down a good deal of the time to keep the temperatures reasonable. The double door of the 600 is not an issue with me as it would seldom be opened - I always have used the side door of any stove. Whatever I get, I will get the fireplace screen, even though I know I'll seldom use it that way.

The dealer had a 500 running in his showroom recently (the new majolica brown - very attractive) and I must say I was VERY impressed. The radiant heat through that large glass door was far greater than I would have believed. By the way, Jotul has a new optional blower system and it is far and away the most quiet of any I have ever heard. Even at the high setting it is completely unobtrusive. I don't want one myself (we have ceiling fans in nearly every room) but for those that might and have been concerned about the noise, give it a listen!

Mark

 

[quinn]

I use a F600 24/7 and it heats my 2700 square foot house beautifully with the exception of the room at the far end of the hall upstairs. I have had this stove 4 years and the only trouble I have had was that the air control level got sticky and would not slide easily (sometimes not at all). It was a simple fix to apply some high temp lube on the sliding vent and when I do this once or twice a year it works fine. The other issue I have with the stove is the fact that the air control level enters the stove on the firebox side of the sliding vent. This means that even when the vent is fully closed there is still air entering the firebox through the air level hole. Even with this design I still get long burns and am very happy with the stove. I would definitely buy it again. I did think about the 500 and for my application and the cold that we get up here in Canada I am very happy to have gone with the larger stove. Have fun with your decision.