New Installation, Need Floor Help

[BillT]

I haven't posted in a while. I'm finally starting to install my new Englander 50 TNC-13. I just read the Directions for the Floor requirements today and also talked to the Englander Tech Line.

To my surprise they say I need a 2.0 R-Value Floor under the Stove.

Maybe there is a link on here that someone could direct me too, but I'm wondering what would be the best thing to use under my Stove to achieve the 2.0 R Requirement.

Any info would be appreciated.

Bill

 

[Tramontana]

Shamelessly stolen from the website; http://archtoolbox.com/materials-systems/thermal-moisture-protection/24-rvalues.html

R-values of Insulation and Other Building Materials

The American Society of Heating, Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) provides R-values of building materials in their 1997 Handbook of Fundamentals.
R-values are additive. For instance if you have a material with an R-value of 12 and another material with an R-value of 3, then both materials combined have an R-value of 15.
Many energy modeling programs and code calculations require U-values of assemblies. The U-value is simply the reciprocal of the total R-value of the assembly.

Building Material R-Values

MATERIAL THICKNESS R-VALUE
Air Films
Exterior 0.17
Interior Wall 0.68
Interior Ceiling 0.61

Air Space
Minimum 1/2" up to 4" 1.00

Building Board
Gypsum Wall Board 1/2" 0.45
Gypsum Wall Board 5/8" 0.5625
Plywood 1/2" 0.62
Plywood 1" 1.25
Fiber board sheathing 1/2" 1.32
Medium Density Particle Board 1/2" 0.53

Insulating Materials
R-11 Mineral Fiber with 2x4 metal studs @ 16" OC 5.50
R-11 Mineral Fiber with 2x4 wood studs @ 16" OC 12.44
R-11 Mineral Fiber with 2x4 metal studs @ 24" OC 6.60
R-19 Mineral Fiber with 2x6 metal studs @ 16" OC 7.10
R-19 Mineral Fiber with 2x6 metal studs @ 24" OC 8.55
R-19 Mineral Fiber with 2x6 wood studs @ 24" OC 19.11
Expanded Polystyrene (Extruded) 1" 5.00
Polyurethane Foam (Foamed on site) 1" 6.25
Polyisocyanurate (Foil Faced) 1" 7.20

Masonry and Concrete
Common Brick 4" 0.80
Face Brick 4" 0.44
Concrete Masonry Unit (CMU) 4" 0.80
Concrete Masonry Unit (CMU) 8" 1.11
Concrete Masonry Unit (CMU) 12" 1.28
Concrete 60 pounds per cubic foot 1" 0.52
Concrete 70 pounds per cubic foot 1" 0.42
Concrete 80 pounds per cubic foot 1" 0.33
Concrete 90 pounds per cubic foot 1" 0.26
Concrete 100 pounds per cubic foot 1" 0.21
Concrete 120 pounds per cubic foot 1" 0.13
Concrete 150 pounds per cubic foot 1" 0.07
Granite 1" 0.05
Sandstone / Limestone 1" 0.08

Siding
Aluminum / Vinyl (not insulated) 0.61
Aluminum / Vinyl (1/2" insulation) 1.80

Flooring
Hardwood 3/4" 0.68
Tile 0.05
Carpet with fiber pad 2.08
Carpet with rubber pad 1.23

Roofing
Asphalt Shingles 0.44
Wood Shingles 0.97

Glazing
Single Pane 1/4" 0.91
Double Pane with 1/4" air space 1.69
Double Pane with 1/2" air space 2.04
Double Pane with 3/4" air space 2.38
Triple Pane with 1/4" air spaces 2.56
Triple Pane with 1/2" air spaces 3.23

Doors
Wood, solid core 1 3/4" 2.17
Insulated metal door 2" 15.00
The R-values above for specific assemblies like doors and glazing are generalizations because they can vary significantly based on special materials that the manufacturer uses. For instance, using argon gas in a double pane insulating glass unit will dramatically improve the R-value. Consult manufacturer literature for values specific to your project.
The values in the table above were taken from a number of sources including: The ASHRAE Handbook, ColoradoENERGY.org, and Building Construction Illustrated by Francis D.K. Ching. Other minor sources were also used. Archtoolbox does not test materials or assemblies.

 

[KaptJaq]

There is an article on hearth.com that gives some ideas...

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/hearth_design

KaptJaq

 

[Tramontana]

Obviously, I didn't edit out combustibles and other materials that would be totally unsuitable for installation around a wood burning appliance.

What is the existing condition of materials where you are placing the stove? (ie., are you installing over a wood floor/subfloor framing system, or perhaps on a concrete slab on grade?

You can start adding materials in thickness to build up the required minimum recommended by your stove manufacturer. Remember the building codes are usually a set of "minimums" and you will benefit by exceeding these, such as additional clearances, etc.

Cheers!

 

[BillT]

What is the existing condition of materials where you are placing the stove? (ie., are you installing over a wood floor/subfloor framing system, or perhaps on a concrete slab on grade?

I will be pulling up the carpet and putting the stove on the wood frame floor with particle board on top of it. I first thought a couple of layers of Durock Cement board, along with Floor Tile would do it, but I need to go with something better like Micore.

Bill

 

[BillT]

KaptJaq,

I see that your link has Micore listed. It also lists Fibrefrax. I'll have to check into that one.

I checked on Micore today and no one in my area, that I know of anyway, has it.

Is anyone out there familar with Micore or Fibrefrax? I'm still learning about Micore.

Or would anyone have any other recommendations?

I would like to keep the total thickness to 4 inches or less, even if I went with something other than Micore.

Thanks

Bill

 

[KaptJaq]

KaptJaq,

I see that your link has Micore listed. It also lists Fibrefrax. I'll have to check into that one.

I checked on Micore today and no one in my area, that I know of anyway, has it.

Is anyone out there familar with Micore or Fibrefrax? I'm still learning about Micore.

Or would anyone have any other recommendations?

I would like to keep the total thickness to 4 inches or less, even if I went with something other than Micore.

Thanks

Bill

Both Micor & Fiberfax are brand names for mineral fiber board. I have only found them stocked in large commercial building supply yards. Another source I've seen is the core of modular office dividers. They use Micor because it is non-combustible and sound deafening. They were redoing some offices near me and I asked for the old dividers. Under the cloth finish I found the labeled micor. Two 1/2 inch sheets will give you more than the R = 2 you need. Add a piece of sheet metal on the bottom and cement board & tiles on top and you will be under your 4" limit and exceed your R requirement.

KaptJaq

 

[BrotherBart]

Both the 30-NC and the 13-NC like yours hearth requirements make me crazy. I know that they came from independent lab tests and have to be followed but every once in a while over the last six years I have checked the temp of the bricks under my 30 and it has never been over 87 degrees. With the stove in full gallop. ESW can't dictate the requirement, the lab tests do, but I wish they could ask for a recount.

 

[BillT]

Both the 30-NC and the 13-NC like yours hearth requirements make me crazy. I know that they came from independent lab tests and have to be followed but every once in a while over the last six years I have checked the temp of the bricks under my 30 and it has never been over 87 degrees. With the stove in full gallop. ESW can't dictate the requirement, the lab tests do, but I wish they could ask for a recount.

I agree. It sure seems like over kill.

Bill

 

[BillT]

Add a piece of sheet metal on the bottom and cement board & tiles on top and you will be under your 4" limit and exceed your R requirement.

I'm curious to why the Sheet Metal would be needed?

Bill

 

[KaptJaq]

I'm curious to why the Sheet Metal would be needed?

Bill

I usually use it for two reasons. First, it is a solid barrier with no seams so nothing can penetrate to layers below. Mineral fiber board, cement board, tiles, stone,... all usually are pieced together with seams that may crack. The second reason is heat dispersal. It acts like a heat-sync to spread any heat (or weight) that hits it.

When I did mine I could only find 3/8" mineral fiber board. I started with a sheet of mineral fiber board, put a layer of 20 gauge sheet metal, another sheet of mineral fiber board, cement board, and then tiles. I offset the seams and had the layer of sheet metal to make sure nothing penetrates.

KaptJaq

 

[BillT]

OK, thanks.

Bill