New Member From the Yukon

[Extremebison]

Hello All,

Been cruising the internet, doing research for a boiler to install at my place. Found this forum and been reading here for a couple of days know. Love this place.

I want to go to a boiler system, just don't know which one yet.
Here's what I got currently got, and want to do.

-a rental cabin within 100 feet of my house I would like to heat. Currently heated by a wood stove with electric back up, heating is included in the rent. size 16x24 timber wall with a spray foamed in roof very warm little place.
- a hot tub currently on electric heating
- domestic hot water currently on electric also
-my house is 800 sq. ft down stairs with 2 bedrooms up, and a attached garage, the house is currently heated with a wood stove full time, and the garage is unheated just when I go in to do work I light the stove. My wife parks in the garage.
-Future additions, another rental cabin, guest cabin, my own shop someday.


My thoughts or going with a central boiler system, heating all
hot tub
my domestic hot water
3 cabins just heating not water heating needs.
garage
house

Currently I burn 7 cord of wood in my house over the season, and the rental usually 1 cord a month, during the winter. Projecting one cord month for each additional cabin. Electricity is around 3000KWH a month for the coldest month.

With the addition of two more cabins I would be steady delivering wood to keep the tenants warm. Having one boiler to watch and keeping everyone warm is my goal. My supply of wood is not a problem. Also I don't mind paying top $ for a unit that will save me time and $ in the long run.

I'm looking into the GARN units, combined with a solar unit, heating winter and summer will be taking care of. What or everyones ideas, and is the a realistic objective or just a dream?




thanks for your time Byron

 

[Hydronics]

Garns are fine units, definitely a much more efficient unit than any outdoor boiler. One thing to consider is that the undergroung tubing will cost you about $13/ft which will add up when piping multiple buildings. It would help if you could locate the Garn in the middle of the buildings. Other quality units to look at are; Froling, Eko, Tarm, Econoburn though the storage isn't integral like a Garn. Good luck!

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

This sure sounds it would be ideal for a Garn 2000 with the 400,000 btu capacity. They seem to excell at heating multiple buildings. You will need to know the heat load though, Randy

 

[Extremebison]

Garns are fine units, definitely a much more efficient unit than any outdoor boiler. One thing to consider is that the undergroung tubing will cost you about $13/ft which will add up when piping multiple buildings. It would help if you could locate the Garn in the middle of the buildings. Other quality units to look at are; Froling, Eko, Tarm, Econoburn though the storage isn't integral like a Garn. Good luck!

Thanks you sir for your time. I was thinking of placing the Garns unit in my garage, then only running one line out to the two rentals cabins which pretty much will be side by side. So it will really only be one line at just over 100 feet then a splice over to the second cabin. The guest cabin will be located right close to the house, making it a short run.

 

[Extremebison]

This sure sounds it would be ideal for a Garn 2000 with the 400,000 btu capacity. They seem to excell at heating multiple buildings. You will need to know the heat load though, Randy

Hi Randy,

Been trying to figure this one out. As I don't have a heat bill for gas and so on but I do know that I burn on average 7 cord of wood in my house in my current wood stove a heating season. Also I consume 3000kwh of electricity a month but thats for lights, car plugs, hot water tank, hot tub, electric space heaters, and so on so how does one break done such to work out how big a unit they would need. It would be safe to say most of that 3000 kwh would be for the heating appliances. Any ideas on how to get a correct btu rating here.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

This sure sounds it would be ideal for a Garn 2000 with the 400,000 btu capacity. They seem to excell at heating multiple buildings. You will need to know the heat load though, Randy

Hi Randy,

Been trying to figure this one out. As I don't have a heat bill for gas and so on but I do know that I burn on average 7 cord of wood in my house in my current wood stove a heating season. Also I consume 3000kwh of electricity a month but thats for lights, car plugs, hot water tank, hot tub, electric space heaters, and so on so how does one break done such to work out how big a unit they would need. It would be safe to say most of that 3000 kwh would be for the heating appliances. Any ideas on how to get a correct btu rating here.

I'm not able to help with the calculations. There are members here that can though & hopefully they will chime in. I'm wondering if the one Garn is even going to be enough though, the Yukon sounds cold in the winter,lol. Good luck, Randy

 

[Como]

Rough calcs in my head:

Garn 2000 burn time.

Cabins one hour each per day
House maybe two hours, maybe less.
Hot Tub, half an hour?
Garage, depends on how often you want to heat it.

On average

I would have thought a WHS200, or something with similar capacity should meet your future needs

 

[Extremebison]

Thanks David, just a quick ? When you refer to 1 hr for each cabin, and so on thats the time needed for heating that area? Sorry just wanted to clear that up, were you or going with that.

 

[jebatty]

3000 kwh [per month] would be for the heating appliances. Any ideas on how to get a correct btu rating here.

1 kwh = 3412 btuh: 3000 kwh/mo = 10,236,000 btu/mo, = 341,200/btu/day = 14,217/btuh for electricity.

Wood conversion depends on what species of wood you are burning. If white birch is assumed, about 20 million btu/cord of seasoned birch (20% MC), 1 cord/mo = 28,000 btuh rounded

Total heat load = 42,200 btuh. That's a pretty low head load. If this is correct, my opinion is that a Garn might be overkill for your application. A gasification boiler with pressurized storage may be your most efficient option. But if your heat load is substantially increased, a Garn may be a option, but keep in mind that if you need hot water (150F and up), the Garn or any other boiler will need to burn nearly continuously to meet the demand.

Based on the 42,200 btuh heat load calculation, and for example, I estimated my shop to have a heat load of 40,000 btuh at -30F and inside temp of 60F (radiant floor). I have a Tarm Solo 40 (140,000 btuh rating) and 1000 gal pressurized storage. So far this winter, with temps in the -10F to +25F range, I am burning once every other day average, about 130 lbs of wood/burn, and about 6 hours per burn (pine slab wood). Hot water is drawn from storage between burns. Couldn't be much easier.

Think through what you want or need to do very carefully. Your are looking at a sizable investment and you want to do it right.

 

[Nofossil]

For residences, the peak heat load is generally about twice the average heat load. For rentals (which are often set back to a lower temp for days at a time, the ratio can be MUCH different. You have to design for peak load, and the electrical consumption only tells you average.

 

[Como]

Thanks David, just a quick ? When you refer to 1 hr for each cabin, and so on thats the time needed for heating that area? Sorry just wanted to clear that up, were you or going with that.

I was assuming that each cabin when rented would over a 24 hour peak period need about 400,000 btus, for heat and hot water.

Which is about how much a Garn WHS 2000 would produce in one hour.

You will see that most people on here burn once or twice a day, they store it and use it, sort of like a PV battery system.

I remember somebody mentioning that a Prison used Garn's for heating, they had a massive load, but also free labour to keep it burning 24/7 when they needed to.

If you have enough storage, then the burn rate needs to be at least big enough to meet your peak load and top up your storage, comes back to the Off Grid PV analogy.

Peak load I am guessing will be first thing in the morning and evenings, so your storage etc really needs to meet night/mornings as you have the chance to build it up during the day for the evenings.

 

[Extremebison]

Thanks for all the great info. I'm trying to make the right decision. The problem with the Yukon is there's nobody here who knows what there talking about. Anytime you need to do something thats specialized one is better off doing it yourself. Thats were I'm at and and thats why I'm here. I do want to do this project right. If I listened to the local guy I would have outdoor central boiler no storage no gasification, just a smoke dragon.

The rental cabins have no domestic water to heat. It will just be heating the cabin. At the moment there's a wood stove inside, with a small electric oil filled radiator heater, keeping away the cold.

3000kwh was at peak I never reached this consumption, but av. around 2500kwh to 2800kwh just rounded it up for the worst case scenerio for electric consumption.

If the Garn unit is to big, then that wouldn't be a bad thing right. Just longer time between firing up the unit, or I'm I missing something here. I plan on placing the Garn in my garage, so any wasted heat will warm the garage, which directly attached to the house.

Please bear in mind that temps drop below -40 here in the Yukon often and or not uncommon. -20C to -30 we deal with everyday.

Wood gasification + storage is the only way to go. Just working out how many BTU's I need, and what system to go with is the ?

Thanks again for all your help, anybody know any contractors that can help me here in the Yukon to consult and hire, until then I'm on my own, and relying on your knowledge to help make the right decisions.

Byron

 

[Como]

Thanks for all the great info. I'm trying to make the right decision. The problem with the Yukon is there's nobody here who knows what there talking about. Anytime you need to do something thats specialized one is better off doing it yourself. Thats were I'm at and and thats why I'm here. I do want to do this project right. If I listened to the local guy I would have outdoor central boiler no storage no gasification, just a smoke dragon.

I have the same problem in Colorado.

The rental cabins have no domestic water to heat. It will just be heating the cabin. At the moment there's a wood stove inside, with a small electric oil filled radiator heater, keeping away the cold

So nothing that matters if it freezes. Would your customer base prefer a heated cabin, could you rent them out more, charge more if the did not have to wait for the stove to do its job, or not use it at all?

3000kwh was at peak I never reached this consumption, but av. around 2500kwh to 2800kwh just rounded it up for the worst case scenerio for electric consumption.

That sounds like just freeze protection. The other way around is to work out the heat load at a temperature you want to keep them and go from there.

If the Garn unit is to big, then that wouldn't be a bad thing right. Just longer time between firing up the unit, or I'm I missing something here. I plan on placing the Garn in my garage, so any wasted heat will warm the garage, which directly attached to the house.

Location may be a code/insurance issue putting it in a Garage, so something to check. Not a lot of wasted heat, you wrap it in a big cocoon.

From what you have said I doubt if it would be that grossly oversized, I looked at your Heating Degree Days, you have more than I do! You just fill it up more often when it is really cold, than when it is just cold.

Please bear in mind that temps drop below -40 here in the Yukon often and or not uncommon. -20C to -30 we deal with everyday.

Ouch

Wood gasification + storage is the only way to go. Just working out how many BTU's I need, and what system to go with is the ?

Lots of options, realistically this is for next winter so you have time.

Thanks again for all your help, anybody know any contractors that can help me here in the Yukon to consult and hire, until then I'm on my own, and relying on your knowledge to help make the right decisions.

Probably the OWB reps are not going to be that much help, but any Gassifier Reps will probably have a list of people they have worked with and who have some idea what they are doing. I do not know if Solar Hot Water systems are common where you are, but essentially it is the same, you just turn the sun on by filling the Boiler.

 

[bigburner]

If you are doing it yourself, and don't have a ton of plumbing experience or don't want to learn. My advise would be to build a shed next to where future shop will be. [attach it when the time comes] The garn is the easiest to install IMO Park it, hook up a few lines add water & wood. Sounds like you will need some fan coils to heat the existing structures. 100 ft runs aren't a problem either. I have two that over 250 ft and two more that are about a 100 ft.

What are the cabins for?? ---- Hunting? snowmobiling? ice fishing? Give us your zip code [or what ever] so we can goggle earth - U See U in-da spring -- starts August 1st LOL

 

[Extremebison]

The two cabins or rented out monthly to tenants. I should say one cabin, at the moment. The second one is on the works. The rent includes wood, and electricity. There's an outhouse, and sink draining outside. They have to haul water with a blue jugs for washing and cooking. Propane stove and small bar fridge and kitchenette is provided. It's a affordable way to live. Lots of people here in the Yukon don't want to pay the expensive to rent in town so this is a alternative. Having there little cabin in the bush. I provide the wood rather then have them buy there own, because then they won't ration it when there home. Making it easier on my electric bill. It's nothing for me to get wood as I got a small saw mill, looking to upgrade this also. There only bill is a phone bill if they want to hook it up. I got a real nice lady in there, at the moment. I was very picky on who I rented it to.

If I can provide heat via central heat, this would cut my work down greatly. I'm still making money on the wood I haul to the cabin, but hauling to one boiler, and providing to all would be more practical. In the long run once I have another cabin up, I would have the heating system paid off in two years just on what I get in for rent. This doesn't factor in my savings on heating my own domestic water, and hot tub via the same system. Cutting my electric bill down also. I don't mind at all paying big time for a system.

I purchase my wood in log length, by the semi load. Laying the big wood aside for the mill, to cut my timbers and lumber for future building projects.

Keep the ideas coming thanks again Byron

 

[Como]

http://forestry.alaska.gov/pdfs/08DOF_AWEDTGBriefing.pdf

Might be worth a look.

 

[pybyr]

The two cabins or rented out ... There's an outhouse...

Since you're planning the system from scratch, an outhouse in the Yukon deserves its own small radiant heat zone, at least for the seat!

[I type this from Vermont where the temperature is currently in single digits F, dropping fast [headed to below zero tonight] and the wind is gusting at over 30 MPH]

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

+1 on the heated seat in the -40 outhouse, Randy

 

[Fred61]

We always kept the seat hanging behind the wood stove and brought it out with us when we had a need for it at our camp up in Bear Swamp.

 

[Extremebison]

Come on guys why ruin the wilderness experiance. LOL

 

[Extremebison]

Come on guys why ruin the wilderness experiance. LOL Just got a email from Jim at Garn can't wait to chat it up with him my situation. Will ring him soon.

 

[salecker]

Hi Extreem
Fellow Yukoner here
I'm in the prosess of installing a Econoburn 200 with 1000 gals storage.I have built the storage myself and got the boiler local.The price for the boiler was within $600 of what it would have cost me to buy it factory direct and have it shipped to Haines Alaska.The help and advice i have recived from the dealer has already been worth more than that.
I'm going to be heating 2600 sg ft log home with lots of high ceiling.My boiler is in an 20x 24 outbuilding 110 ft from the house,also have a 20x30 shop i will heat.Will add a green house,hot tub in the yrs to come.Will add solar in the years to come as well.
Anyhow i have learned a lot on this site,wish i would have found it yrs ago,but i belive i'm headed in the right direction.Been a steep learning curve.
Pm me and i'll give you my phone # if you want to look at my system or if you want to ask me any questions.I can get you a line on tanks for storage.
.I'm impressed in the way the boiler is built,but i havn't had any before to compare to.
Enjoy the reading
Thomas