New to Pellets, High Altitude and a few other issue installation.

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Como

Minister of Fire
Jan 28, 2008
885
Colorado
www.comodepot.net
I am putting a wood boiler system in our commercial property, but we also have a small house that started as a trailer and was heavily modified and has a really nasty forced air furnace that does not really heat the building but at least stops us freezing.

At some point I want to replace it with a passive solar design I can heat with a candle, but will not happen for at least a few years if ever.

I am not interested in getting up in the middle of the night for a wood stove, a pellet stove would cost a lot less than any other option. And I am fed up burning Propane and still being cold.

I am going to tighten up the structure, but still going to be not that good. It is about 1,000 sq ft, but we are at just under 10,000ft and have massive temperature swings. Lowest this year was -40 fortunately no wind, -20 is a more common low. This time of year 5 at night and 25 in the day is more normal. 45 tomorrow so a 85 swing in a week. HDD is 10,500.

During the day the sun keeps the place above 50 usually, Furnace will come on occasionally if we have a cold or cloudy day.

My calcs and gut feel both came up with a reasonable peak load of 40,000btus

I can get Confluence Pellets locally for $208 a ton. Seems a pretty constant price and I have been told that they have improved this year.

Looking on this board today I came up with the following:

Heatilator PS50 - 50,000 btus gross, so 40,000 btus net less altitude
2 bag hopper so should keep the place warm, if we are away for a few days. I want to minimse furnace use, see if it can limp through a few more years. To replace the furnace is $3,000, the PS50 plus horizontal chimney would be $1900. We are on Propane at $2 a gallon last refill, would not be surprised to see it back at $3 this year.

1. We are going to use Garns for the Hotel, they come with a high altitude fan. There seems no options for Pellet Boilers. What should I reasonably downrate?

2. I see mention of the need for High Altitude changes in make up air and chimney. But not what they are.

3. I was going to vent through the west wall horizontally, basically because it is cheaper and there are no doors or windows we would open during the winter on that side. The wind comes from the North. We have a reliable Electricity supply, the issue with a power failure I can live with. Seems common but vertical is more recommended by the manufacturers. Is it that big a deal?

4. I would only use a foot or so of chimney pipe, I was going with 3 inch. I will have the OAK and the only other thing is to ground it and bolt it.

5. I can not put it in the middle, best I can do is about 2/3rd towards the cold (north) end. So I am relying on convection. I see them being used for much larger buildings and am slightly concerned about the heat spread, do you keep your doors open, use fans? I was hoping that heating the living room/kitchen to 70 ish would mean the bedrooms/bathrooms were 60 ish.

This ended up rather long, would be grateful for any comments.
 
I can't really comment on any of your questions. Except the last one.
The Heatilator PS50 is great economical choice. Its petty cheap and gives great heat. Price is right compared to the bigger brands. This stove is made by HHT, they also make the Quadrafire and Harman models. The internals of a Heatilator are the same as a Quad (ie: CB 1200, Castile, Santa Fe).
As for your sq footage, this stove should suite your needs just fine. I have the Quad CB 1200 and run on low 90% of the time. Unless the temp drops below zero, low is fine. (Running stove 24/7). House is 2,180 sq ft. Keep temp about 75.
The Convection side of it, you will need to leave your doors open, and run ceiling fans if you have any. (Low in reverse). Also you can install Entreeair fans. They go in the corners of hallways or doorways to help move the air from room to room. They also make thru the wall fans. Same concept, but this application looks cleaner, though it costs a little more. Hope this helps a little. These posts move to the back of the pack quite quickly on the weekends. Maybe someone else can help you with the other 3 questions. Good luck.
 
If there is a high altitude modification kit for the heatilator it is likely just another set of blades so the fan can suck enough air through the stove.

The starting point is with the manual in the venting section. It should list how to do the venting and reference any available high altitude modifications and for detailed information you need to talk to them.
 
Many thanks, found the fan http://www.suncourt.com/EntreeAir.html

They have some interesting other products, should be able to get the heat from the north end to the south end using one or more.
 
I'm heating over 1800 square feet on two floors and I just use my stove's convection fan. I run it on high all of the time.

You likely have a lot higher heat requirement than 40,000 BTUs a lot will depend upon air infiltration and how much insulation you have.

Do you have any idea on the size of the furnace you have? That should get you somewhat in the ball park (should be higher than actually needed).
 
Yep, that's the one. With the fan there is only a 3 degree temp difference in our bedroom. They do a pretty good job. Little noisy, but I like a little noise. Helps me fall asleep.
 

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I looked through the instructions for this stove and a few others. Found nothing. Chimney manufacturers make no comment I could find.

I also had another search on this site, I obtained the impression that a 3" to 4" might be needed as it creates more natural draft. Which makes sense to me.
 
At high altitude you have two problems to overcome.

One is the reduced oxygen in the air and the second is the pressure of the air in the stack that restricts the exhaust from leaving the venting.

The higher the altitude the less the back pressure but the worse the burn so you have to ram more less dense air through the system.

It is sort of like a lose/lose situation, the back pressure issue can be removed by using the shortest vent possible consistent with allowing the exhaust to exit the stove without building the temperature in the exhaust paths past their design limits (about 250 °F on the rear wall of the heat exchanger, 475 °F at the blower, 500 °F /600 °F at the first RTV seal).

You need to talk with the stove manufacturer. They are the ones that determine what is supported. The vent manufacturer only has a say in clearances to combustibles, physical fastening, maximum flue temperatures, and sealing requirements for the vent you are using.
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
I'm heating over 1800 square feet on two floors and I just use my stove's convection fan. I run it on high all of the time.

You likely have a lot higher heat requirement than 40,000 BTUs a lot will depend upon air infiltration and how much insulation you have.

Do you have any idea on the size of the furnace you have? That should get you somewhat in the ball park (should be higher than actually needed).

It says 70,000 btuu, probably less than half that allowing for age, efficiency and altitude.

We use electric oil radiators as well.

So 50,000 Gross From Pellet might come down to 35,000 actual allowing for efficiency and altitude.
 
Hello

I have an Entree Air fan also. It works great. I wired it up to a wall mounted speed control. That way I can quiet it down some. Then I connected it to a Honeywell Line Voltage Heat/Cool thermostat to the cooling contacts mounted above the pellet stove. I set the stat for 74 degrees so when stove heats the air above it to 74 degrees or higher the fan comes on automatically and warms up our room. Automation is great !!!
 

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What you need to understand is that 50,000 gross is likely firing rate and not net output and even then with a particular test pellet. As in life all things are not as they appear to be.

Likewise in Pellet World they talk about pounds but the devices have fixed volume fuel hoppers and fuel delivery systems.
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
DexterDay said:
Don2222 said:
Automation is great !!!
Fantastic idea..

It is even better if it isn't needed at all.

Yes Smokey, you are correct. But my wife is Pregnant and likes it HOT.. Without the fan, there is only about 6 degrees difference. Which is only 68-69. Still not that bad. Our ranch is 71 ft long. Needs a little convincing to move the air. We run on low, on our Quad. The blower drops off significantly. The CB 1200 has a blower switch for the fan (high/low) unlike the Santa Fe or Castile. But it is still have the CFM's than on High heat, high fan.. Really KICKS the heat out then..
 
I called the dealer, he said to go with 4' Pipe. So that is one question answered.
 
I found some answers so I will add them here just in case they are useful for others:

1. There seem to be 2 manufacturers who allow close distances to a door with an OAK, Harman and Lopi. If there are others I did not find them.

2. 3" pipe is possible with a Quadfire if it is straight out, as soon as you start adding bends you should go to 4". Quadfire seem the stove of choice around here.

3. Englander has a high altitude fan option, they are pretty basic and cheap, especially if you have a Home Depot discount and hit the end of season sales. Did not come across any others.

4. If there is a downgrade for heat output I did not find one. It seems that any loss is relatively minor, can be minimized by making sure there is plenty of air, like using an OAK.

5. And the fan issue has been answered, thanks.
 
RE: #2 above the clearance is by stove not manufacturer and Sherwood's Enviro EF2 allows installation of the vent down to 18" from windows and doors that may be opened.
 
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