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New York Outdoor Wood Boiler regulations

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by altheating, Mar 20, 2008.

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  1. altheating

    altheating New Member

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    Eric, I stumbled across these links the other day. The first is a link announcing New York State DEC Regulatory Agenda, http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/36816.html Part way down the page look for, 6 NYCRR Part 247, Outdoor Wood-Fired Hydronic Heaters. This is the new proposed legislation for OWB’s in New York State. I spoke to a guy at DEC who stated that the rulemaking will start as soon as April 1st, 2008. This link, http://www.lungnh.org/site/c.cnKFITNsEkG/b.3794751/ is a link to the American Lung Association of New Hampshire’s web page. The page links to the actual NYS NYCRR Part 247 Outdoor Wood Boiler regulation draft. http://www.lungnh.org/atf/cf/{CC909354-D6C7-4B79-859A-768B92C749BD}/NYPart 247.pdf

    Page #12 of the draft.
    “Section 247-3.2 Prohibitions.
    (a) No person may operate an existing outdoor wood boiler that does not meet the requirements set
    forth in this Subpart. Section 247-3.3 Setback and Stack Height Requirements.
    (a) Stack height requirement. An existing outdoor wood boiler must be equipped with a permanent
    stack extending a minimum of eighteen (18) feet above ground level effective October 1, 2008.
    (b) Setback requirement. An existing outdoor wood boiler that does not meet the requirements set
    forth in Section 247-2.2(a) or Section 247-2.3(a) of this Part which is sited less than 500 feet from the nearest
    property line must be removed or rendered inoperable by September 30, 2010.”
    For those who think their Outdoor Wood Boiler will be “Grandfathered In” here in New York State, think again!

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  2. Nofossil

    Nofossil Moderator Emeritus

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    The 500 foot setback is pretty dramatic. I wonder how many boilers meet that now - I'll bet it's close to zero. Here in Vermont it's a big cost increment to locate your house more than 200' from the nearest utility pole, so most houses are within 200' of the road. You'd have to locate your boiler another 300' beyond that, and have a lot that's more than 1000' square - I think that puts you somewhere near 25 acres minimum lot size to have an OWB.

    But they're not banning them altogether.......

    Is a gasifier in an outbuilding considered an OWB under this regulation?
  3. altheating

    altheating New Member

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    Yes they are considered a outdoor boiler. According to NYS any boiler in a building not normally occupied, which heats an adjacent building is considered an OWB.
  4. Telco

    Telco New Member

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    Sounds nasty. Sounds like you folks in New York need to start voting people out of office, or start running your own folks for office. That's the only way you'd be able to force a change back. Your local EPA folks would have to rescind that ruling if you could force laws through that made such requirements illegal, but it'll be a tough battle to fight.

    Based on this though, since I want to use wood heat as a backup heating source for a solar hydronic with large storage I think I'll have to redo my design to plan for possible future hostile regulations. Seems to me that if you were to build a small brick shed on the main house, then put a heavily insulated fire rated door leading to the interior, that the wood stove would no longer be an OUTDOOR wood stove, and these regs would no longer apply. You could still use it as an outdoor stove, and access it from outside the house with a second door, but with a door on the inside they could not say it was not an outdoor stove anymore. You'd just need to make it large enough to walk from the inside of the house to the outside through the burn room. Make it a bit larger, and you could store a cord of wood in there too. I'd just make sure to seal it well to keep spiders living in the wood from being able to get into the house. Executed properly, and it might even be more attractive than an exterior shed.
  5. altheating

    altheating New Member

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    The outdoor boiler must be listed for indoor installations. You simply can not put a outdoor wood boiler indoors. They got ya on the codes.
  6. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    The industry brought this stuff upon itself. They lied and continue to do so in order to maximize profits. For business to thrive in the long run, honesty and being a PART of the community is necessary.

    These things would have never hit the radar screen if the industry had made an early and continuous effort to police themselves and be good neighbors. So when the axe comes down, we (or they) only have themselves to blame.

    Meantime, I'm not crying yet about the many millions being made by folks who found a loophole in the regulations that cover BOTH boilers and outdoor burning.
  7. bbb123

    bbb123 New Member

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    No smoking cigarettes or wood in NY. The stack req. would help alot the 500' from border is gonna be tough like nofossil said. In my town you need 200' road frontage, 2 acres, and 100' from borders for home building. I can't wait till DEC has to go give someone a ticket for an OWB there's gonna be a riot. There are not any OWB bothering me (course I have few close neighbors) but my aunt lives next to one and if I was her I would not be happy. She claims she likes the smoke smell I agree but when I drive by and can't see the house that's a little ridiculous.
  8. leaddog

    leaddog Minister of Fire

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    Thats why all the neat stuff over in Europe isn't available here. There standards are as strict or more so but because of the hodgepodge restrictions of all the locals,states, federal gov, and our trial lawers they don't feel that it is profitable to do bussiness here. I'm all for buying American but if we don't get some of the competition from over seas we will still be puting smoke dragens in the basement. We need to get away from making standards to protect companys and use standards that promote standards to protect people and be flexable and use other countries standards also. Look how long it took to beable to use pvc and pex pipe here in the US. It wasn't to protect people it was to protect the Pifefitters. The heating people are the main ones fighting the fight against OWB along with the oil and propane co.'s Here in Michigan you can't hardly find a dealer to sell a propane tank as they all want to make you lease as they can make you pay THEIR price then. When oil,propane, elect, and NG gets up there then sudenly bio-mass will become the GOOD fuel. All the polititions will be climbing on the band wagon and saying how they were for bio-mass, wind, and solar all along.
    Here in West Michigan they are putting a big elect. generation plant in on a dairy farm using manure and making a HUGE deal over it. It is Austrian teknowledge in partnership with GVSU but it probably won't be duplicated here again because of the stupid laws here that won't let them sell the elect to the electical co. at a profit. Money,Money,Money talks not the good of the people or nation.
    leaddog
  9. SnowTraveler

    SnowTraveler New Member

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    shorty, you didn't mention our taxes. Try running a small business in this state, holy crap. Now they want to ban outdoor burning, even in rural areas.
    Got a pile of brush? Don't burn it, you may get arrested.
  10. altheating

    altheating New Member

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    Yup, I see that law was passed too. Looks like if you are not holding a hot dog ready to be cooked, you better not light a fire! That's it, it aint a outdoor wood boiler, it's a cook stove and you are using the residual heat to heat your house. It's lunch time, time to put a log onto the cook stove.
  11. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey, there is some land in Idaho right near T_Monter for sale.......get a few hundred acres and you probably will have it made.

    But when you live in a state that has 20 million people in it (or more?), there are going to be problems.

    BTW, you can't use BBQ's in quite a few air districts and other places also!

    Outdoor burning (not boilers) has been regulated in most places - which I think is good all in all. They have certain days or you can get a permit and do it, but if we had a bunch of folks with bonfires each day we'd be choking pretty good.

    Again, in a world with 6 billion (and growing), we certainly are not going to say "anything goes". On the other hand, I think if the OWB manufacturers and dealers had started out educating customers and improving their product from day one, they would not be bringing things down on themselves. Most people agree that the when you start affecting other people is the "line" when personal freedom stops. Sure, it is always a question of "how much" did you affect them, but again these new regs were not created because the government had nothing else to do.....there are LOTS of citizens who have complained.

    A better course of action would have been for the makers and the Fed EPA to come up with relatively lax, but effective standard on cleanliness...and make it mandatory instead of voluntary. But it has not been done. Our system of government allows you to address grievances at various levels, and that is what has been done here.

    Now don't shoot the messenger....I personally have never got involved except to tell our trade group government liaison what I said above - that WE have to fix it or someone else was going to do it for us.

    We don't live in the wild west anymore...at least in New England and NY State. I suppose you could go to WV and get away with it for longer.

    BTW, a mile is 5200+ feet. 500 feet is less than 1/10 of a mile. Consider it "one block" or so.

    I guess the big question is always "who are "they?". "They" want to ban this, they want to do that. I would say that "they" are the majority of the people. If you sat each and every NY state resident down and carefully educated them about the issue, I would guess that most would come down on the side of less pollution, even if it meant restrictions on open burning. So we do get the government we deserve, and that is "freedom". Freedom does not mean the ability to do whatever you want.
  12. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    ADOLPH SPITZER and his GESTAPO cronie commissioner of DEC (dept. of environmental cockamamie) PETER GRANNIS. GWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA what a joke !!!!!!!!!!
  13. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    C'mon, Lee, let's keep the threads informative so we don't have to rant back and forth and move everything to the Can! If you have something to add, do it in a way that a non-pol might understand.
  14. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    My opinion of NYS and it's judicial system and DEC has been formed by many experiences with both. Not one of them has been a good experience although they all turned out in my favor. I've spent alot of time jumping through hoops and in court to prove these idiots wrong and feel it's been a waste of my valuable time ,which there is very little of. And never compensated for even though I was proven innocent in a court of law.

    These laws are for the betterment of society and air quality , I understand that. But all it takes is some whiner going to extremes and a gestapo DEC cop looking to make a name for himself . An OWB owner or maybe even an EPA stove owner will have his hands full defending himself. It's just not right considering the alternative (fossil fuels). Every individual burning wood has a responsibility to not invade their neighbors air space. Minimum chimney height on OWBs is a must but not grand father in a unit under the minimum distance. That's B.S.

    With these new laws on the books, whats next ? EPA approved stoves not good enough and they must be removed for something "new and improved". It's coming down the pike (or should I say the pipeline) , we will be right back to filling the pockets of the oil companies.
  15. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Ah, now I understand and am becoming more convinced!
    (no kidding)

    Somehow I always give a well explained POV a bit more credence.

    BTW, it should be noted (for historys sake) that NY State is the case that caused the EPA to regulate regular wood stoves. Just FYI.
  16. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    I wouldn't get too worked up about NYS regs. Presumably our state and my county has laws against this kind of installation (on a business, no less), but I don't see any of the evildoers on the state payroll trying to enforce any of our many rules/laws against this bar, which is right along the state highway, and has been for at least the past 30 years.

    And yes, that single-wall stove pipe "chimney" is hooked up to the primary heat source for this bar. I think I've even seen it glow red on one or more occasion.

    Attached Files:

  17. Eric Johnson

    Eric Johnson Mod Emeritus

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    Here's another one--right in town. They just spent a small fortune putting new, log siding on this building, but the "chimney" remains the same.

    Attached Files:

  18. leaddog

    leaddog Minister of Fire

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    I read somewhere here in a post from heaterman that in Michigan it is against the law to hook up your own water heater. Maybe this is why the US has more people in jail per capita than any other major country. Stupid laws that are not thought out and don't serve the purpose they were designed to do. When one of the townships here was putting in a ban on OWB I went with informative info about gasification boilers and presented it and there responce was. THERE IS NO WAY TO DIFFERENCIATE BETWEEN AN OWB AND A GASIFICATION ONE. THEY ALL TURN WOOD TO A GAS TO BURN. SO BAN THEM ALL. Of course one of the members owns a heating business and Hates all wood burners. He wants to ban woodburning inside houses also. I'm not against passing reasonable laws but they need to look at what is good in the long haul. Is burning more coal better on the air and at what cost. How about nuclear, Is that safe? What about global warming and how is that effected. Not that the farmers need more money for corn, or I own a heating bussiness, or we have lots of coal and it will help out so and so, or lets make gas, propane, NG higher and we can make more money. Just fly over the country some fall and see all the farm residue being burnt, and drive around and look at the side of the road in the woodlots and look at all the waste wood rotting. Like it or not that is putting polution into the air. How about the landfills putting so much methane into the air they have to put tubes into the ground and and light it. Stupid. Or how about making it a law that no mammal can pass gas as there is a HUGE amount of methane gas being put into the atmospere by all the cows, pigs, and chickens that we eat and after we eat them we add to it.
    They are having a big fight here in Michigan about windmills. The elect. co. don't want to buy the energy they want to build more coal plants. The big coal states are supporting them. And I heard that wind mills would be very efficiant off the East Coast but the people (Kennedy"s and other rich property owners) don't like the looks of them.
    The story here is that laws are not passed for the good of the people they are passed for the good of the power people.
    WE the owners of gasification boilers need to let our voices be heard now before they are passed because once they are it is HARD to change them.
  19. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    Just like most other laws they will let most people slide untill there is a complaint then look out, guilty untill proven innocent.
  20. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    Sometimes my brain has to vent but my fingers don't feel like splainin' !
  21. Telco

    Telco New Member

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    There are two forces that drive laws in this nation, and that is the squeaky wheel and the fat pocket. In my own neighborhood I had to put the clamp down on a squeaky wheel at an HOA meeting. She (my next door neighbor) was just starting a tirade about "When are we going to make the people with antennas take them down?" She apparently doesn't like my TV antenna, which is on my house between hers and mine. Before she could get into full vent mode I announced very loudly that I could answer that question, and proceeded to start going over the Telecommunications Act of 1996, and how the FCC has been known to fine HOAs thousands of dollars PER DAY for harassing antenna owners because that act specifically states that it is illegal for any entity, public or private, to have rules that affect TV antennas. They can have placement rules, so long as they don't cause a financial hardship for the owner or affect TV signal quality. The only exceptions to this is old, historic value neighborhoods. After my own tirade, I announced that should I receive a notice from the HOA about my antenna, the FCC and my lawyer would have a copy of it the day I received it, and a suit would be filed against the HOA. I've not heard a word about it since. I've also noticed in my walks that a lot more antennas have gone up in the neighborhood, including satellite antennas.

    The only way you are going to be able to get those laws changed/cancelled is to become the squeaky wheel. Get your local TV stations to do stories about the advantages of wood burning. Paper your representative's offices with complaint letters, petitions, ect, and demand the laws be changed. Go for flat out no regulations at first, and use things like gasifier style only or periodic inspections as negotiating points. Freedom requires effort and sometimes blood, and it's only for the complacent that freedom actually disappears. Once again, find and run candidates with your own interests and get them into office. Work on their campaigns, donate money, ect. Get people with your views into office, and the laws can be changed, but changing them with the people in office that passed them is near impossible mainly because it requires them to admit to being wrong.
  22. Chris S

    Chris S New Member

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    What about those of us who are going to have to put up these large chimney extensions? Is that where we should mount our attennas? (TIC)
  23. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    No, the antennas will provide an extra wind load and the things will blow over
    (especially yesterday - 60MPH gust recorded nearby)
  24. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Within your rights to send whatever to whomever in government, but it is sort of sad that you have to relate Spitzers problems to your cause.

    THINK a little bit. Could just some of the backlash against OWB come from your neighbors? I will answer that - YES. It is for certain. Hundreds of complaint have been filed by people like you and me...yes, people living in VT, upstate NY and elsewhere.

    I don't have a real dog in this fight, but the writing is on the wall. Clean up the OWB act, prove it, and I'm certain some exemption can be made in the eventual state or local regs. But open burning with no pollution controls will end. That is, of course, my opinion......

    It is important to see both sides of the issue - and there are two sides. You are playing right into the hands of the people at Burning Issues and other anti-wood burning sites. Should you be able to put your outhouse above the creek like our forefathers did? Should you be able to pour your motor oil in the ditch (where the water runs into the lake)?

    I am in support of your right to burn wood. I am not in support of your right to disturb your neighbor(s).

    I feel for the tough times in Upstate NY. But in our country, your neighbor...whether part time or full time, has exactly the same rights as you to breathe air free of pollutants. You can't have it both ways.

    It would be better, IMHO, to come up with a reasonable alternative to their legislation which exempts EPA certified OWB, Pellet and corn models, and perhaps certain people with enough setback and acreage - and decent chimneys, provided they get a permit and are given some "learn how to burn" materials with the permit.

    Lobbying for increased pollution and reduction of air quality is going to be a tough number in this "green" age.
  25. trailhound68

    trailhound68 New Member

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    Great job keeping yourself and now us aware of these legislators are up to. We have similar restrictions on OWB's in CT. Some towns have outlawed them outright. That's one reason I bought an indoor boiler, the other is the proximity to my neighbors.
    Let's not forget that the revenue states receive from fossil fuels are directly related to the cost. At least in CT.
    My main point is that many of the people in government don't want you to be self reliant. Their kneejerk reaction is to BAN any product or activity they have no control over.
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