Newbie with a Napoleon 1100 and questions (long)

[vick]

Hi all,

I recently had a Napoleon 1100CN wood stove installed in my 1890s victorian in northern california. I have a good updated gas furnace but I've always wanted a wood stove so I decided to give it a try - the tax credit made it easier to justify. I have about 1200 sq ft of living space on one floor and I generally keep the thermostat around 65 (during the day, at night I set it down around 55 - the girlfriend loves it!). The ceilings are a little over 10ft and the upstairs is unfinished with very little insulation. I know I can make the house a lot more efficient with some insulation but I'm in the early planning stages of building the space out - I'll insulate when I do that project.

I worked with one of the local stove dealers to pick a good install location and model that would meet my needs. The Napoleon 1100CN seemed to fit the bill. I've been using it for a few weeks now and so far I'm pretty underwhelmed with its ability to heat the space. My wood is seasoned oak and after some practice I'm able to get it up to working temp pretty reliably - I don't have a thermometer but the glass is remaining clear which, from what I understand, is a good indication that it's burning nice and hot.

There's no question that the stove is running hot, my question is where the heat is going. With the door open it's obvious there is tremendous heat being generated, but once I close it up it might as well be a piece of furniture. I brought my concerns to the dealer and he suggested a blower - so we put one on. There is a bit of difference, the heat is clearly distributing better, but we're far from feeling like there is a wood stove cranking. My next step is to put in a ceiling fan in the room with the stove to see if there is lots of heat pooling up high that can be redistributed, I'll do that this week.

My dealer told me that he would work with me to find an alternate (bigger) stove if I was still dissatisfied after trying the blower and ceiling fan. I think I have pretty realistic expectations given the inefficiencies of the house. I would think though that at a minimum I should be able to adequately heat the room the stove is installed in with some distribution to adjoining spaces.

Any thoughts/inputs are welcome. I realize that wood burning is an art and that I've got lots to learn to get the most out of a stove, but I feel like I should be getting more out it at this point than I am.

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[Dix]

Welcome to the forums !!


How seasoned is the oak you are burning? Most times, wood that is unseasoned is usually the culprit.

 

[begreen]

Blowers are almost a necessity for most inserts. Is the upstairs the same sq ftg as the downstairs? If so, that's a lot of space to try to heat with a little stove. Based on the description I would consider the 1402.

As a test, try temporarily blocking off the upstairs with some plastic sheeting. If that makes a world of difference, investing in properly insulating the upstairs will have the greatest benefit. And that benefit will be year round.

PS: Are you up around Garberville? It has been pretty chilly for that area this month.

 

[vick]

Thanks for the replies.

To clarify, the stove is freestanding, not an insert. And there is not any access to the upstairs yet - the project will be to put in a staircase and then frame and finish a couple of rooms up there. I know the heat is making its way up there eventually, but it has to pass through the ceiling to get there for now.

Not sure how seasoned the wood is I'm using. I got it from a friend though who's burning it in his stove and you can sit in his house with a t-shirt on and be comfy. My stove is going full bore at the moment and I'm sitting about 8 feet from it, even with the blower going I can barely feel heat coming off of it. Open the door though and the heat is amazing. Is it mostly going up the chimney?

BeGreen - I'm in Grass Valley. Chilly recently but not ridiculously so - perfect wood stove weather!

 

[begreen]

Ah, thanks for the nice picture and clarifications. The stove should be able to heat up a 1200 sq ft space pretty nicely. How open is the air control at this stage of the burn?

Note, if the stove is trying to heat up the house from 55, it's going to take awhile to bring the mass of the house up to temperature.

Also, is the furnace fan being run? That could cool down the air. FYI, by code, the return air grille is supposed to be at least 10ft away from the stove.

 

[begreen]

The 1100C is a hybrid stove. Like the PE Alderleas and smaller cast iron Quadrafires, it has a cast iron jacket on a steel, inner stove. It is convective by design. This means that you won't feel strong heat radiating from the sides and top. Only the front of the stove will radiate heat intensely. This is what gives the stove close clearances to combustibles.

 

[vick]

I thought this model would be well suited to the sq footage as well. I know it takes a while to bring the house up to temp but even after a few hours of burning at temp the best I've been able to do is get the house temp to around 65, and that's with outside temps in the 30s to 40s.

The air control is about half open in the pic. I've been starting with it wide open, then choking it down as the temp comes up. Before hitting the rack I've been closing it almost entirely to prolong the burn and preserve some hot coals for the morning.

Interesting point about the code for the air return. The stove dealer installed it and never mentioned that. He even suggested that I'd be able to run the fan and distribute some of the heat through the central ducting. I have not tried that because I've been unable to even heat up the main room.

 

[n3pro]

Thermometers would help to get a better idea. I usually have my furnace set at 68 because it does take a while. Normally it will take me about 2 fires to get the temp up to 72 in the living room, 25 feet away. By the 3rd fire close to bed time it's up to 78. Once you get it there it's much easier to maintain with the stove. I would say after the first fire in my case to get the flu and stove warmed up, I figure about a degree and hour about 20 feet from the stove. What I found for me at first the room the the stove is in gets warm but the rest of course is not, as the night goes and everything starts to even out.

Again without a thermometer its tough to tell if you are actually getting it up to optimal temperature.

Just my thoughts.

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

I would be curious to know if the furance duct is playing a factor here . . .

Thermometers . . . get them . . . one for the stove top and one for the flue pipe (magnetic for single wall pipe and probe style for double wall pipe.) Without these you're really just guessing that the stove is being run hot enough . . . it is very possible to feel and look as though you're getting all kinds of heat from a fire when in fact the fire may be running on the cool side. Thermometers are cheap and very useful tools to running a stove efficiently and safely.

Glass being clean . . . is a possible sign that the stove is being run hot enough and the wood is seasoned . . . but it is not an end-all, be-all sign. No smoke from the chimney is another possible sign. Good secondaries is another sign (you never mentioned if you have good secondary combustion). Perhaps the best sign though is when you do your check and cleaning of the chimney . . . this will tell the truth as to whether the stove is being run properly and/or if the wood is good.

Seasoned oak . . . as mentioned many folks believe there wood is good and seasoned. Sometimes it is . . . sometimes it is not. Having a friend get good heat from the same oak is a good sign . . . but again it is not the definitive answer since you did not mention what type of stove your friend is using . . . folks with pre-EPA stoves can often get away by using less seasoned wood for example . . . at the price of burning through more wood less efficiently and creating more creosote.

Ceiling fan . . . this may help. I have short ceilings in my house so I have never used them. Other folks have used them with some degree of success. What you may also want to try though is to position a floor fan in an adjacent room and point it towards the stove . . . this will help move the heat from the stove to other areas in the house. However, I realize that the problem you seem to be reporting is not in moving the heat . . . but in getting the heat out of the woodstove. Nevertheless I would try this . . . it effectively sets up a thermal air current as cool air is moved towards the stove, heated up and the hot air rises and moves outward to fill the space vacated by the cool air.

Secondaries . . . I already asked . . . but I'll ask again since this is important . . . do you have good, sustained secondary combustion -- aka the Bowels of Hell, propane BBQ jets or Northern Lights in your upper third of the fire box? A lot of heat from EPA stoves that utilize secondary combustion occurs with the secondary burn.

Time . . . as mentioned by others . . . time is important. Generally I don't really start to feel the heat in my woodstove until the first reload on a cold start fire . . . which is one of the reasons why by this time of year I'm burning 24/7 since the house and stove do so much better. While there will be some heat coming off my stove on the first fire . . . it takes time to heat up the bulk of the cast iron mass and this is when I really start to feel the heat.

Operation . . . it sounds as though you're running your stove correctly. A lot of folks make the mistake of leaving the air control all the way open which gives them lots of flames and they preceive this to be hot and good when in fact the majority of the heat is going up the chimney (and they generally do not get the advantage of secondary combustion) . . . ideally you would want to bring the stove up to temp (which is where thermometers are nice to have) and then start cutting back on the air . . . most folks actually reduce the air to the quarter mark . . . some a little above . . . some all the way shut . . . a lot depends on the chimney and draft . . . and the quality of the wood . . . if the glass begins to smoke up you've cut back too much on the air . . . the stove isn't hot enough yet or your wood isn't as well seasoned as it should be and still has some moisture.

Good luck.

 

[Leaky Waders]

Jake, et. al.
I have a new Hampton HI300, and seem to be having some issues with burn quality. I am sure my wood is less than ideal, since this is our first season heating with the stove, and I am essentially taking my firewood suppliers word that it is "seasoned." Of course, realistically, it is not as seasoned as it needs to be." We don't get a ton of smoke out of the chimney, but don't get the light show that folks are describing, and have had some issues with dirty glass.

I have a magnetic stovetop thermometer, but since my stove is an insert, I cannot measure the flue temps. Is there some way I could be monitoring my flue temps??

Thanks.

 

[firefighterjake]

Jake, et. al.
I have a new Hampton HI300, and seem to be having some issues with burn quality. I am sure my wood is less than ideal, since this is our first season heating with the stove, and I am essentially taking my firewood suppliers word that it is "seasoned." Of course, realistically, it is not as seasoned as it needs to be." We don't get a ton of smoke out of the chimney, but don't get the light show that folks are describing, and have had some issues with dirty glass.

I have a magnetic stovetop thermometer, but since my stove is an insert, I cannot measure the flue temps. Is there some way I could be monitoring my flue temps??

Thanks.

I'm not sure how you would monitor the temp on a flue with an insert . . .

As for the wood . . . one thing you can do to help get by this year is pick up some free pallet wood . . . you can use the cut/broken up pallets to help "dry" out the moisture in your less than ideal firewood . . . it's not perfect . . . but by using the pallet wood to bring your fire up to temp and help drive out the remaining moisture you can burn a bit hotter and cleaner and achieve secondary combustion and hopefully have a better time with the dirty glass. Best solution of course is to get your wood now . . . for next year.

 

[dafattkidd]

Hey Andrew,

I have the same stove in an insert. I heat 1600 sf with it and it does a pretty good job. If you can exchange it for the 1402, I would do it. Your stove set up is very nice by the way.

Here's some advice from a second year burner with the same stove. Start off with a kindling fire with a good amount of kindling (maybe some of that pallet wood Jake was talking about). Get a good coal bed. Once you have a hot flu and good coal bed place some pallet wood down on the coals. Place two or three splits side to side (East West). Let them catch. Add pallet wood if necessary. Once burning pretty good place three or four splits on top of the burning splits front to back (North South)- in our stove this requires splits shorter than 13 inches. Then fill in whatever spaces you have with more pallet wood or construction debris. This should help you achieve good hot fires. Definitely get at least a stove top thermometer. They're like 12 bucks and will help you a lot.

Also as previously stated bringing house temps up from 55* is really a lot of work for the stove. It might be worth it for you to throw the heat on in the house for a bit while you're lighting the stove to get temps up and even. Then use the stove to maintain good comfortable temps. Hope this helps.

 

[ControlFreak]

Hi all,

....
The ceilings are a little over 10ft and the upstairs is unfinished with very little insulation.
....
There's no question that the stove is running hot, my question is where the heat is going. With the door open it's obvious there is tremendous heat being generated, but once I close it up it might as well be a piece of furniture.

Andrew, if your house is cold (like 55 degrees), you have a tremendous heat sink there. Not only the air is cold, but everything else inside the house is cold as well. Additionally you have high ceilings and little insulation in your second floor. Heat always goes UP. Upstairs that is. When the stove is going at it's strongest, take a candle or a lighter to your stairwell. Hold the candle up high and you should see the flame indicating upward airflow. Hold the candle low by the floor and you'll see air coming down the steps. That's where your heat is going.

I agree that you need to get a thermometer on the stove. Without that, you don't know for sure what's going on.

As for opening the door and feeling the radiant heat. Yes the glass does reflect a lot of the heat back into the firebox, and that's a good thing that helps keep the fire operating cleanly. Considering that your glass is clean, and if you have good secondary action, then you're operating properly. But as stated elsewhere, you have a hybrid convective stove. You need to run that blower at full speed when the stove is really cranking. Also realize that this stove is going to produce a MAXIMUM OF 55K BTU for about 2-3 hours (at it's peak), which is probably less than half of what your furnace produces. If you're going to be operating this stove with the intent that it should rapidly heat up a cold house, you''ll need a much larger stove.

I would agree with switching over to the 1402, but I think you should go with the 1900, especially if the dealer will work with you on the exchange and even more so if you will want to take a 55 degree house and heat it up quickly.

I heat about 2700 sq ft of a well insulated home with a 1401 (earlier model of 1402), but I burn 24/7 and keep the house at a consistent temperature. If let the fire go out for a day and let the house temp drop down into the lower 60's, it will take the stove a day or more working very hard to get the temp back up to 70. With the rest of the house at a cool temperature, it is amazing how the heat from the stove just seems to disappear.

 

[oldspark]

Vick, I have a new Summit and I am some what underwhelmed my self, my old wood burner gave me "instant" heat and the summit is a more laid back kind of heat so you have to keep the house warm to get it to heat the area well. Not sure mine will do the job when it is really cold, I too am using Oak and I can feel your pain, not sure if I will ever get used to it. Good luck!

 

[dafattkidd]

old spark,

What kind of stove did you have before? I'm sorry to hear you're not getting the same kinds of results from you summit. That looks like a great stove.

 

[oldspark]

old spark,

What kind of stove did you have before? I'm sorry to hear you're not getting the same kinds of results from you summit. That looks like a great stove.

Nashua, just a 500 lb beast with a baffle that put out a ton of heat in a short time, after 30 years I thought it was time for a change but I continue to question whether it was the right move. I love the glass door and the looks of the Summit but the heat output just doesn't seem to be there, not sure I am saving any wood either.

 

[JoeyD]

I'm on my third season with my 1100c. I don't have 10' ceilings but my first floor is about 1200 sq feet with a second floor of about 550 sq feet. The stove is located a good distance from my stairway and around a corner. I have a fan near the stairway blowing cool air towards the stove pulse 2 ceiling fans. My downstairs temps will range from 74 or more near the stove to about 71 in the room with the fan. Upstairs will be about 3 or 4 degrees cooler then the bottom of the stairs. So this stove is capable of putting out some heat. When my house is 64 or below it does take some time to get up to 70 but once things start to warm up it has no problem keeping up. One thing I have noticed is that after 3 years my wood is drier then it has ever been and I can tell by the heat output so I suspect your wood supply may be part of you problem. Also I'm getting 5+ hours of heat from a load now. Stick a pipe thermometer in your flue. It will help to tell you what is going on. Also have you packed it full and kept it going for more then one load? I find that I get a lot more heat on the second load.

Hope you get things working because although this my first stove I'm satisfied with the performance.