Newbie

[addition]

I am a newbie, trying to choose a fireplace for a new addition. Right now, we have a large cut-out where our fireplace will go. We are trying to heat -- with wood -- an area of about 1750 square feet. We have been looking at pre-fabs and inserts and have acquired enough knowledge to know that we want: high efficiency; as large a viewing area as possible in the firebox; non-catalytic (although we're open to being persuaded that catalytic is OK or preferable); capacity for large logs, if possible (minimum of 24", but larger if possible); arched opening preferable. My wife is concerned that the samll size of many of the inserts and prefabs would look out of proportion in the large (wall-size) fireplace we envision. Also, our contractor feels that we should build a masonry outside chimney for the pre-fab/insert because he's wary of long-term danger of putting other types of surrounds around the pipes. Can you folks comment on any or all of this. I would also welcome any specific product suggestions. Thanks very much in advance.

 

[edthedawg]

Welcome to the forum, addition.

Sounds like you're looking for a Quadrafire 7100, tho it's rated for larger area than you intend. 24" is a long log, tho!

As aesthetics and proportions seem high on your list, your best bet is probably to visit a stove shop and get a feel for what's out there and what they look like in person. Hampton and Regency make some nice looking inserts that might be a little smaller log-wise than you want. The Jotul C 550 Rockland is a pretty close match. I'm not wild about the Lopi Freedom's aesthetics, myself, but the size and performance specs match your requirements.

As for your construction options around whatever you pick, anything exterior to the house is going to increase the cooling effects on your chimney. If you are sold on full masonry, then go for it. If you don't mind a sided chase, then that works too. Pick a good pre-fab chimney to build and assemble (and insulate!) the chase around that, OR go the old-school route and build a big masonry chimney and drop an insulated liner into it after the fact.

I think a masonry & steel box around the insert itself is a must, myself. up above the box? proper insulation, clearances, and building methods should dictate the end result... Can't count the number of new construction houses out there w/ prefab chimneys that are sided - but unfortunately can't find any direct links to construction details at the moment...

Good luck!

 

[addition]

Thanks very much for your response. Very helpful. I'll check out the Quadrafire 7100. One local dealer has a great buy on a Fireplace Xtraordinaire 44 Elite. Two things about it concern me: the Positive Pressure system (some say that the cold air intake is a heating liability) and the catalytic system (takes a long time to heat, adds a potential replacement part). Would you mind sharing your views on these points? Thank you again for your help.

 

[Jags]

Cats do add a maint. item, but also offer some benefits as well (longer burn times is the biggie). And yes, the cat is considered a consumable. Outside air kits (OAK) is a hit or miss, depending on the install. For a sealed up 44 or quad, I wouldn't consider it a liability. More of an asset in my opinion.

Assuming that you will not have problems with moving the heat, I would suggest staying in the 3.0 range of stoves. Maybe even a little bigger. Overnight burns are tough with any insert much smaller than that.

Just one dudes opinion.

 

[addition]

Thanks very much for the reply. I'm exposing (further!) my ignorance, but what is an outside air kit and what does a 3.0 range mean? Also, should I worry about reports that the 44 Elite with its positive pressure system brings in cold air and takes a long time to produce heat? I've also seen comments that its glass gets dirty easily (or is that something that all glass front units experience?)

 

[Jags]

OAK stands for Outside Air Kit. Basically your combustion air is brought from outside instead of burning up inside (already heated) air and sending it up the stack. An OAK can also be a cure for some installs that have a Negative pressure problem or a draft problem.

3.0 was just my short way of saying a 3.0 cubic foot firebox. If you look at the different glossy sales brochures for different stoves, they will throw out all sorts of numbers designed to sell you their stove. One thing that is common amongst all stoves (assuming they are new style) and is a measurable figure is how much wood it will hold. Hence, firebox size. That is probably the most accurate way to compare stoves and their heating ability.

 

[rdust]

Thanks very much for the reply. I'm exposing (further!) my ignorance, but what is an outside air kit and what does a 3.0 range mean?

The outside air kit is so the stove pulls air from outside and not from the house to feed the stove. The 3.0 cubic foot range is the size of the firebox.

Also, if you plan to heat with wood this winter coming up make sure you have wood stacked and seasoning right now. This winter will be my first winter heating with wood and it's pretty common for newbies like us to not have good seasoned wood on hand the first season. As I've learned from reading here even the best stoves will not perform without good wood.

 

[Jags]

...or is that something that all glass front units experience?

No - I clean mine once every two or three weeks. Can't vouch for the 44.

 

[fossil]

How quickly the viewing window gets dirty depends on a number of things. The one thing the operator has no control over is the effectiveness of the airwash flow path built into the appliance. Some are better than others. Factors over which the operator does have control are the moisture content of the fuel and how the fuel is loaded into the stove and how hot the fire burns. Inadequately seasoned wood loaded North-South (front to back in the firebox) placed close to the inside of the window and burned in a low smoldering fire is a perfect recipe for a blackout of the viewing window. Rick

 

[addition]

Should I worry about the positive pressure heating system in the 44? There seems to be some skepticism among some dealers about a system that brings cold air into the chimney.

 

[summit]

the 44 elite is actually quite a heater, but there are some things you will need to consider
1. the unit requires its own integrated chimney system, it is impossible to attatch this unit to a masonry chimney! Doing so will void any warranties, and create a potential fire hazards!
2. there are 2 large cooling ducts that run off this fireplace, 6 in diameter. these must run to the outside, and many people do not take them into consideration when building their fireplace enclosures.
3. there is a seperate box for the heat distribution fan that takes up quite alot of space right next to the unit. this ducts into the fireplace with a 6" duct, that again, many people do not take into consideration when building the enclosure.
4. all the things i just listed look NOTHING like anything that has to do w/ a fireplace, and require a lot of effort to camoflauge them without restricting their openings for operation.

It sounds like the wife is going to have quite alot of input into the final look of this unit, and if she sees the octopus of ducting coming off the 44 elite, she may well have a cow. A better option would be the RSF Topaz, or chameleon, which do not require all this stuff running willy nilly thru your chase enclosures. I have actually had more experiance installing the xtrodinare 44 elite, but after a couple RSF installations, the setup is way easier, and these units do not require a catalyst to operate efficiently, so i like them much better. You can also adapt them to install into a masonry chimney, or can vent with an excel class a chimney (like a standard metalbestos style instead of an air cooled 14" vent), and can run with gravity vents for your hot air coming out, so if the power goes out, you are not screwed because your blower does not work.

 

[fossil]

From what I can glean from the manufacturer's description on the website, "Posi-Pressure" is just the fancy name they've given to a system that draws outside air into a chamber around the back of the appliance, and this air is available to be drawn into the fireplace for combustion (thus is basically a fancy OAK), and the remotely mounted circulation fan takes its suction from this same chamber to send air around the box and then out into the home. There is no fan discharge air involved with combustion. It's really just a variation on the theme of an insert with an OAK & a blower. I certainly wouldn't "worry" about it, I'd just decide if I wanted it or not. Looks like a very nice unit, BTW...but I have no personal experience with them. I took a tour of a $1M+ home some folks we know just bought here in Bend the other day, and I think that very fireplace is what they have installed there. Rick

 

[addition]

Well, now I'm getting worried about my total lack of knowledge! Since we've not yet filled in the "hole" where the fireplace will go, I figured I could easily look at pre-fab fireplaces and have a masonry chimney built around it. Am I wrong about that? Our contractor describes himself as "old school" about having a masonry chimney. I've shown him the zero clearance units that do not require a masonry chimney and he says he would worry about fire hazards in future years. He feels that if the piping develops problems and the surround is not masonry, there will be a real fire hazard. I know that many many homes have the zero clearance units with a non-masonry surround. Are those potentially hazardous?

 

[Jags]

Hmm... new construction. Maybe consider a masonry backing up the wall and hearth pad with a nice free standing stove and shiny stainless pipe going up through the roof...just a thought (and better heat ).

 

[fossil]

Any UL-listed appliance, properly installed, operated, and maintained is perfectly safe. Rick

 

[Brian VT]

Hmm... new construction. Maybe consider a masonry backing up the wall and hearth pad with a nice free standing stove and shiny stainless pipe going up through the roof...just a thought (and better heat ).

I agree with that idea. Built-ins seem too permanent to me. What if I don't like it ? What happens when I can no longer get parts for it ? Will I be able to find a suitable replacement unit ? Will I be able to sell the old one and get some of my investment back ?

 

[fossil]

Heck, with new construction, the possibilities are endless...of course the $$$ never is. I'm thinking of masonry or stonework built into the house, so that from inside it looks like a solid masonry fireplace structure...you can certainly have your arched opening...then a really nice hearth stove installation. Smaller footprint than a freestanding, but with a blower kit you get all the same heating effectiveness. Exhaust that up a lined flue to daylight pretty much any way you want to go, but the straighter up the better. The masonry doesn't need to completely enclose the flue all the way up, or even be exposed at all on the outside of the house. Pretty much like installing a free-standing stove in an alcove and using some sort of masonry/stone as a decorative facade. I also like raised (~12") hearths...getting too old to enjoy bending over. Rick

 

[Wet1]

Another large insert you might want to consider is the Buck Model 91. It has a 4.4 cu ft fire box and a cat (which I prefer), so this stove can burn long and/or hot, but you can still burn long and low with it as well. It will hold 21" logs and has lots of glass for viewing. It's also one of the few that can be used as an insert or a free standing stove. When configured as an insert, the front sticks out a little so the fire can be viewed from all around through one of its three windows. This stove has just about everything I wanted in my next stove, but the one feature this stove doesn't have (which I wanted, but it's rare) is a thermastatic damper, so I ended up going with the BKK, even though it's not as attractive as the 91. Although, the BKK is not an insert either...

http://www.buckstove.com/wood/model91.html

Another option is a masonry heater (Russian fireplace) since you're starting from scratch... They are large, open, super efficient, and pretty much the ultimate in fireplaces.. Just something else to consider.

http://mha-net.org/html/gallery.htm
http://mha-net.org/

 

[summit]

biggest issue you will run into w/ masonry is cost and time... masonry stuctures require lots of extra concrete footings in the ground, and a good mason can be hard to come by (and keep on the jobsite past happy hour!) a prefab unit has some high initial costs for material, but are very modular, and do not require a lot of demo if you every decide to change things around. also, a good masonry fireplace and chimney will run you @10K while a prebuilt runs about half that, and operates a lot more efficiently. in order to make the masonry fireplace an effective heater, you would have to put in an insert, which, if the wife has anything to say about it, will be nice to look at which will run you another 3K or so. A previous post was right about the buck stoves, they are nice, but are pretty homely... I think they do make a zero clearance can for some inserts, so you can have the efficiency and look of the wood insert you want, without the expense of masonry. Bottom line, any good pre fab unit you go with should be expected to last at least 30 yrs, which is about how long your masonry structure will go before it needs repair, relining, repointing, etc.

 

[Wet1]

Summit,
I believe the OP stated they wanted a "large (wall-size) fireplace". I'd mentioned the Russian fireplace since this is new construction. Heavy and costly, yes, but it sounds like they want to do a large wall sized fireplace anyway, so this is an option worth looking into. A masonry heater is about as efficient as you're going to get, much more so than any prefab, stove, or insert. They really are the ultimate 'fireplace'. And unlike a prefab (which looks "prefab" and often cheesy IMO), a true masonry structure looks much better and adds a lot more appeal and value to the home. If I had a clean slate to work with, the space, desire for a wall size fireplace, wanted the a super efficient heater, I'd go with a masonry heater.

Here's some more general info about basic design:
http://www.fireplacesmagazine.com/stoves/masonry-heaters.html
http://www.grannysstore.com/Do-It-Yourself/masonry_stoves.htm
A few other pictures here:
http://www.mastercraftmasonry.net/

 

[fossil]

...a good mason can be hard to come by (and keep on the jobsite past happy hour!)

That might be your unfortunate experience with a mason or two, but it's an absurd and indefensible generalization...regardless of what trade you might be talking about. I know a brick/stone mason who's done a considerable amount of work for me who's one of the most talented, meticulous, creative and reliable craftsmen I've ever known.

...A previous post was right about the buck stoves, they are nice, but are pretty homely...

"Homely" is a totally subjective concept. I'm among the folks who would say we like the looks of Buck stoves & inserts. Rick

 

[Brian VT]

...a good mason can be hard to...keep on the jobsite past happy hour!

I know a brick/stone mason who's done a considerable amount of work for me who's one of the most talented, meticulous, creative and reliable craftsmen I've ever known.
Rick

I know 2 masons. They both meet both of those descriptions. lol !

 

[fossil]

...a good mason can be hard to...keep on the jobsite past happy hour!

I know a brick/stone mason who's done a considerable amount of work for me who's one of the most talented, meticulous, creative and reliable craftsmen I've ever known.
Rick

I know 2 masons. They both meet both of those descriptions. lol !

:lol: Yeah, Brian, I hear ya...all I'm saying is that it's a function of the individual, not the trade in general. And I've known tradespeople just like you're talking about, as well...carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc. But to say that all of any of them are just like anything just isn't justifiable. Rick

 

[johnn]

All the Masons I`ve met were on the level, and square dealers