non-barrier pex

[free75degrees]

I just read the Tarm manual last night and it says: "Any radiant tubing used with an HS Tarm boiler must have an oxygen barrier! If not, water in the tubing must be separated from the boiler by using a heat exchanger."

Does this refer to pex used in radiant floor systems only? Does it also refer to pex used to supply and return from baseboard heaters? My baseboard supplies are all Watts water pex (no barrier). If I had known better at the time, I would have insisted on barrier pex when they did the install. But now I have a lot of piping closed in by finished walls so I may be screwed. Do I have any options other than ripping out and replacing the pex or using a HX to isolate the Tarm?

I also looked at my Weil McLain oil manual and it says something similar to the Tarm manual, so the guys who did my install may be liable for damages. What do people think I should do?

 

[NHFarmer]

I talked to Tarm about the O2 barrier,they told me all piping needed to have an O2 barrier.I am planning to use Aluma-Pex so I won't have to worry.I am no expert but I would think you could use boiler chemicals to remove O2.Sure would beat removing existing pipe.

 

[nhjohn]

Do you have a storage tank? I would spend my money on a storage tank and isolate the Tarm from your heating system. You might even be able to use an old 50 gallon water heater to act as a buffer tank - use O2 barrier tubing between it and the Tarm.

Also, can you insulate the pipes with something that acts as an O2 barrier? A spray foam?

 

[free75degrees]

I talked to Tarm about the O2 barrier,they told me all piping needed to have an O2 barrier.I am planning to use Aluma-Pex so I won't have to worry.I am no expert but I would think you could use boiler chemicals to remove O2.Sure would beat removing existing pipe.

Thanks, I'll ask Tarm tomorrow if oxygen scavenger is ok. Any suggestion on a good brand?

 

[free75degrees]

Do you have a storage tank? I would spend my money on a storage tank and isolate the Tarm from your heating system. You might even be able to use an old 50 gallon water heater to act as a buffer tank - use O2 barrier tubing between it and the Tarm.

Also, can you insulate the pipes with something that acts as an O2 barrier? A spray foam?

I am building a storage tank, but I had wanted to be able to go direct from the Tarm to the zones so that I can get fast heat when the tank temp gets low. Also, If I use the tank to isolate the Tarm i think i would need another heat exchanger and I just spent over 5 hundy on copper for the first one.

For the 50 gallon tank idea - are you saying that it would act like a heat exchanger between the tarm and the tank? That might be an option, although I'd like to keep it simple.

It might be possible to insulate the tubes, not sure, but my big problem is accessing them. If I could get at the pipes to insulate them I would probably just replace them.

 

[Willman]

Any radiant tubing used with an HS Tarm boiler must have an oxygen barrier!

Any tubing used with any boiler should have an O2 barrier. Oxygen loves to feast on iron and steel. Whoever did your install made an unconscionable mistake. Maybe they just snaked the tubing in the walls and you could pull it back after disconnecting at BB. Just remember to tie a pull cable to old tubing. Or maybe with minimal wall invasion you could change out the tubing. Who speced out the job ? Was there anything in writing specifying equipment and materials to be used ? If the installer speced non barrier and you agreed there might not be much recourse.
Another example of extreme due diligence before contract is signed. Hindsight is always easy.
Will

 

[free75degrees]

Any radiant tubing used with an HS Tarm boiler must have an oxygen barrier!

Any tubing used with any boiler should have an O2 barrier. Oxygen loves to feast on iron and steel. Whoever did your install made an unconscionable mistake. Maybe they just snaked the tubing in the walls and you could pull it back after disconnecting at BB. Just remember to tie a pull cable to old tubing. Or maybe with minimal wall invasion you could change out the tubing. Who speced out the job ? Was there anything in writing specifying equipment and materials to be used ? If the installer speced non barrier and you agreed there might not be much recourse.
Another example of extreme due diligence before contract is signed. Hindsight is always easy.
Will

Thanks for the direct response. I guess I am going to have to replace the pex. I'd rather just fix it right rather than use a sub-par solution.

The type of pex was not spec'ed. However, the manual for the oil boiler (which they installed) says to use O2 barrier, and I think it is reasonable to expect them to do the install according to the boiler manual. I will talk to them tomorrow and see what I can get out of them.

 

[Willman]

I will talk to them tomorrow and see what I can get out of them.

Is the installer or company licensed P&H;contractors ? Was the rest of the install up to snuff ? If so they should know about O2 barriers, no excuse there. Maybe a call to your state license bureau might give you some leverage.
Will

 

[Bob Rohr]

You could use a boiler treatment that includes O2 scavangers, film providers, ph buffers, etc. But it will need to be maintained and boosted from time to time. I like the Rhomar products and they do offer a test kit to check the fluid condition.

Lower operating temperatures will help as the O2 ingress is directly related to temperature.

But we learned expensive lessons many years ago when polybutylene and non barrier rubber tubing was sold by the boatload for hydronic systems. The Europeans tried to warn us

All things considered a simple plate HX and non ferrous components downstream, including the expansion tank, may end up being much cheap, and less hassle than a chemical romance.

Last I checked a gallon of treatment was about 70 bucks. Depending on system volume it could take 5, 10 gallons or more for the initial fill and a yearly "boost"

hr

 

[free75degrees]

Is the installer or company licensed P&H;contractors ? Was the rest of the install up to snuff ? If so they should know about O2 barriers, no excuse there. Maybe a call to your state license bureau might give you some leverage.
Will

Well, they WERE licenced. After trying to call them at various phone numbers I started to get suspicious, then I found an article online saying they filed for chapter 11. Then I found the owner's name show up as the owner of a different company that incorporated last year. So I called them and asked them if they were the same as the previous company. The lady said yes, so I explained my situation and she said they would call me Monday. We'll see. I'll mention the state license bureau.

The rest of the install was kind of crappy. They mistakenly put a valve backwards and had to be supervised constantly because they kept wanting to pipe things in stupid locations. If I left it up to them i would have had a million bump outs all over the place. Anyway, the rest of my contractors were very good, so I can't complain too much about one bad one when you hear about people getting jobs half finished when the contractors move to another country with all their money.
.

 

[MrEd]

Chapter 11, typical, is is very common for contractors (heating, building, cement, roofing etc), to file for chapter 11 ever few years and just start a supposedly new company under a new name (but with all the same people and same equipment)...takes care of all those pesky consumer complaints and warranty work they are on the hook for.....

 

[free75degrees]

This is going to be a tough decision...

I talked to Tarm USA this morning and they said that it MIGHT not be a big problem since I do not have a huge length of non-barrier tube. They worry about it a lot more with radiant floor heat where there are hundreds of feet of pex. I also talked to a tech person from Watts and he said that they don't support the use of the water pex for radiant application but that it probably isn't a big deal if I don't have a lot of pex. Both people told me that I should look into getting a high quality air separator. Right now I have an Amtrol Air Purger at my oil boiler. Is that a good one?

So the plan that I am now thinking about is to replace all of the first floor pex since i can get to it easily from the basement. That would leave about 100 feet of non-barrier pex supplying the 2nd floor. I would also invest in the best air separators. Does anybody have a recommendation on very high quality air separators? Should I bite the bullet and replace all of the pex?

 

[Willman]

Does anybody have a recommendation on very high quality air separators?

Check out "spiro vent" a little more money than a standard scoop from watts but does a better job from what I read on another site.

Will

 

[Bob Rohr]

I wouldn't worry about 100' of non barrier causing problems.

Caleffi also has a top quality air 551 Discal.

I still like to see a boiler cleaner, then treatment added. The treatment puts a very fine film on the inside of all the components and piping to help prevent any rust or corrosion from starting. Very similar to the way automotive antifreeze and coolants work.

Boiler treatment chemicals are an inexpensive way to protect that investment. Rust never sleeps

hr

 

[free75degrees]

Cool, I'll check out the spiro vent and caleffi and boiler chems. I ordered some fostapex yesterday to replace the piping that I can access from the basement and a little extra in case I ever get bored so i can work on the 2nd floor stuff. Thanks a lot guys, I went from being totally stressed out yesterday to feeling much better about it today.