not enough heat

[Elciteeve]

Good morning all!

So I recently installed my Pacific Energy Vista, I'm burning cut up pallets for now. Mostly 4x4 fir as my "logs" I get a nice coalbed going and then stack 4 of the 4x4s nice and tight together to try and make one big log if you will. This is after the stove is nice and warmed up. Usually about 30 minutes after I get the fire lit. I've read a bunch of forums on here and can't really find an answer to my question.

Basically the stove just doesn't put out enough heat to keep the house warm. My house is 1300 sq ft in all and the living room it's in is 16' x 15' which is the primary location we want warm. Granted the kitchen is connected to this room with a wide open window into the living room and a large walkthrough. So in reality the space the stove heating is more like 15' x 26' 3 - 4 hours after burning and the place is only 50 degrees or so. The people at the stove store said this would easily heat a house of 1500 sq ft so we figured it was the right choice for us, knowing we really only needed to heat the living room / kitchen.

The fire rolls along great, I have a nice secondary burn going, i'd say it's a bit more lively than a "lazy" flame, but I'm not over firing. I just don't get it, every wood stove I've ever used just makes the place toasty and warm. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[begreen]

Stove stores often underestimate the heat loss of a house. If you are running the stove with 600F stove top temperatures and unable to stay warm then it is just too small to keep up with the heat loss during cold snaps like we are having. FWIW the local stove shop refused to sell me our T6. Said it would overheat the house and that we would end up hating them. Nonsense. I ended up buying the stove in Bellingham and installing it myself and have never regretted the decision. In our climate zone you need a bigger heater for serious cold spells or just supplement the wood heat with the house's primary heating system, or fix the house's insulation and sealing need to reduce heat loss. The Vista is rated from 500 to 1500 sq ft. but there are so many variables in house design, insulation and location that this is just a rule of thumb. That is why the wide variation. At a minimum it sounds like you need the Super27. It will put out around 10K BTUs more than the Vista in practical use. And don't let the house get so cold. It's better to keep it close to the normal ambient temp.

Do you have a primary heating system? If so, start it up and use it to bring the mass of the house up to normal temperature. Moving a house interior ten degrees takes a lot of extra heat. Much more than it takes to maintain temperature once the walls, floors, cabinets and furniture have warmed up.

 

[Elciteeve]

Do you have a primary heating system? If so, start it up and use it to bring the mass of the house up to normal temperature. Moving a house interior ten degrees takes a lot of extra heat. Much more than it takes to maintain temperature once the walls, floors, cabinets and furniture have warmed up.

Nope. The stove was supposed to be the primary heat for the house. We are remodeling currently. There is new insulation in all exterior and interior walls. I'm getting the floor insulated next week, and we're working on sealing up the windows properly (some of them look like they are the original windows from when the house was built in 1903) I knew I wouldn't be able to heat the entire house before the remodel was done but I was really thinking the two main rooms it would be heating wouldn't be an issue

 

[St. Coemgen]

Despite the over use of talking about square feet to heat, the real area to heat is a volume. That is, the "sq ft" to heat assumes a standard, average ceiling hight, which may nor may not be true for your space. In other words, having a 1500 sq ft space to heat will mater, and will differ, if your ceiling is 8 ft or 14 ft. That may seem obvious, but, oddly, stove manufacturers or sales persons do not often tell you such a simple fact.

Not only that, but such "heating estimates" often assume an average (or more often ideal) insulated room. If you do not have that level of insulation, your heating may suffer.

So, first, you need to determine the actual volume to heat, and the quality of the insulation. Then, and only then, will you know what volume your stove can heat, or what size of stove you should buy.

For example, using one online calculator (accuracy not guaranteed, so you should compare with other calculators), for a 1500 sq ft floor space, with an average 8 foot ceiling, you need a 24 kw (81,000 BTU/hour) stove. But that is just a ball park estimate. Using that as a base line, you really should still consult a heating expert/professional for more accurate figures to get all the correct facts (not a salesperson who just wants to sell you as product).

For example, I calculated, given our space volume, and insulation level, we needed 15 KW of heat. We have two chimneys. So we have an 8 kw and a 6 kw stove. Total 14 kw. And that is actually enough, mainly ( I suspect) because I added extra insulation in the house. So that goes to show such online calculators are estimates only, but not unreasonable ones.

 

[begreen]

It may heat the place ok once the house it up to temperature, but that will take 2-3x the btus to get all of the interior up to temp. If this is the primary heating system then the house needs a bigger stove and greater capacity for longer burn time. Long term I would also install backup heat, even if it's electric baseboard.

 

[Elciteeve]

So, first, you need to determine the actual volume to heat, and the quality of the insulation. Then, and only then, will you know what volume your stove can heat, or what size of stove you should buy.

Interesting. I didn't even think about ceiling height... stupidly. Our ceilings are 10' so that adds considerable volume to a standard room... Like I said though we are remodeling currently. Perhaps I'll beef up the attic insulation and floor insulation before they get sealed up. The walls are already a done deal. Our goal is to seal up the house as much as possible and install a fresh air intake on the stove.

Thanks for the good info fellas.

 

[Squisher]

The vista is a small stove. I've always preferred to be in a to much heat rather than not enough situation. I don't know why a stove shop would want to sell a stove that just barely might be big enough.

I read Begreen mention 600 stovetop and I read you mention you're not overfiring it. But are you monitoring actual temps? A PE will run 600-700 stovetop no problemo.

 

[Elciteeve]

It may heat the place ok once the house it up to temperature, but that will take 2-3x the btus to get all of the interior up to temp. If this is the primary heating system then the house needs a bigger stove and greater capacity for longer burn time. Long term I would also install backup heat, even if it's electric baseboard.

We have been tossing around the notion of forced air heating / cooling simply for days when my wife is home alone (I love her to death but she's not very handy) I supposed this could be the deciding factor.

 

[Elciteeve]

The vista is a small stove. I've always preferred to be in a to much heat rather than not enough situation. I don't know why a stove shop would want to sell a stove that just barely might be big enough.

I read Begreen mention 600 stovetop and I read you mention you're not overfiring it. But are you monitoring actual temps? A PE will run 600-700 stovetop no problemo.

My infrared thermometer reads 500 stove top temp.

 

[iron]

FWIW, i was remodeling our house last year about this time. had a hole in the ceiling straight into the attic so we could run new electrical. the hole was probably 12'x16'. i had the fireplace cranked to the max and ran wood in it all day. the interior of the house was somewhere around 50-55 degrees (it was not as cold as it is right now in the pacific NW).

now, a year later, with everything closed up and insulated (r-11 exterior walls, r-50 in the ceiling, decent air sealing), the fireplace heats the whole house. i could easily get everything to 80+ degrees, but most people start not liking the temps above 75. after i start a full load in the morning before leaving for work, my wife basically adds 1-2 splits every 2-3 hours (not fully seasoned wood, yet) and keeps the house around 71 all day long.

all that said, i wouldn't give up just yet.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Hate to say it man,,but if the stove is operating normally you are out of luck. Time to upsize that stove or insulate the home better.

Heat loss is quite simple. Getting the home to retain that heat is more complicated.

How is the insulation in the attic?

 

[Squisher]

My infrared thermometer reads 500 stove top temp.

So you can push the stove a good bit harder if you're not getting enough heat. The difference between 500 stovetop and say 700. Is substantial. Try to get it to 600 to start.

 

[Elciteeve]

FWIW, i was remodeling our house last year about this time. had a hole in the ceiling straight into the attic so we could run new electrical. the hole was probably 12'x16'. i had the fireplace cranked to the max and ran wood in it all day. the interior of the house was somewhere around 50-55 degrees (it was not as cold as it is right now in the pacific NW).

now, a year later, with everything closed up and insulated (r-11 exterior walls, r-50 in the ceiling, decent air sealing), the fireplace heats the whole house. i could easily get everything to 80+ degrees, but most people start not liking the temps above 75. after i start a full load in the morning before leaving for work, my wife basically adds 1-2 splits every 2-3 hours (not fully seasoned wood, yet) and keeps the house around 71 all day long.

all that said, i wouldn't give up just yet.

Nice. I have R13 in the walls and will have r32 lining the roof with r13 lining the walls / floors / ceiling in the attics (finished attic storage) but I'm thinking it would be wise to bump the roof up a bit...

Right now there is no insulation in the roof - just in the ceiling. It's blown so who knows what the R value is.

 

[begreen]

Maybe rent a 60-75K btu propane space heater for a day or two and use that to bring the interior up to temperature. By the weekend temperatures will be 10 degrees warmer and the place will be easier to heat.

 

[sportbikerider78]

No. You don't insulate a roof. Insulate the ceiling floor of the attic. Roof temps should be as close to ambient as possible.

Throw down some big fiberglass blankets if you think heat could be escaping through there.

 

[Chimney Smoke]

Do you have a ceiling fan? I notice a huge difference in even heat distribution when I leave my ceiling fan on low when the stove is burning. My kitchen/living room/dining room is all open and everything stays warm.

 

[Elciteeve]

No. You don't insulate a roof. Insulate the ceiling floor of the attic. Roof temps should be as close to ambient as possible.

Throw down some big fiberglass blankets if you think heat could be escaping through there.

this is what I mean by insulating the roof. This is what our contractor told us to do.

 

[Elciteeve]

Do you have a ceiling fan? I notice a huge difference in even heat distribution when I leave my ceiling fan on low when the stove is burning. My kitchen/living room/dining room is all open and everything stays warm.

We have an electrical outlet that we are deciding what to do with... a fan could potentially go there.

 

[begreen]

For right now in lieu of a ceiling fan you can use a simple table or stand fan. Put it in a corner of the room opposite of the kitchen opening and point it upward toward the middle of the ceiling.

 

[Elciteeve]

For right now in lieu of a ceiling fan you can use a simple table or stand fan. Put it in a corner of the room opposite of the kitchen opening and point it upward toward the middle of the ceiling.

I will have to try this out tonight and see how it goes. Thanks.

 

[begreen]

Are you working during the day and trying to take the temp up just during the night? That could be part of the problem. If so, you will need a stove 2 times the size of the Vista and even then it will take hours to move it from 50 to 60F.

 

[Elciteeve]

Are you working during the day and trying to take the temp up just during the night? That could be part of the problem. If so, you will need a stove 2 times the size of the Vista and even then it will take hours to move it from 50 to 60F.

As I said before I'm burning pallets - so nothing lasts long enough to burn for extended periods. So the short answer is yes.

Once I get some nice oak rounds the wife will add fuel on her lunch break and my goal is to keep the fire burning as close to 24 / 7 as possible. (She can get a log on the fire if it's right there next to it... but much more than that and she won't do it. It's a work in progress. Last year she didn't even know how to start a fire... we'll get there even if it takes a while.)

 

[Chimney Smoke]

Are you working during the day and trying to take the temp up just during the night? That could be part of the problem. If so, you will need a stove 2 times the size of the Vista and even then it will take hours to move it from 50 to 60F.

My stove is pretty small (2.2 cu ft) i think. Often I will only burn afternoons and at night because I'm too lazy to get up earlier than I need to (already 5AM) to get the fire going and shut down before work. When I start it up in the afternoon I can usually get the downstairs from 62-70 in about and hour and a half with the ceiling fan going. Without the fan it does take forever with a small stove.

 

[begreen]

As I said before I'm burning pallets - so nothing lasts long enough to burn for extended periods. So the short answer is yes.

Once I get some nice oak rounds the wife will add fuel on her lunch break and my goal is to keep the fire burning as close to 24 / 7 as possible. (She can get a log on the fire if it's right there next to it... but much more than that and she won't do it. It's a work in progress. Last year she didn't even know how to start a fire... we'll get there even if it takes a while.)

Oak will take a couple years to season. Doug fir will be ready for next season if you stack it now in an open area with a cover on the top. If you can stack it so that the prevailing winds can blow through it, even better. But I'd still consider upgrading to the Super 27. It has excellent long burn times.

 

[Elciteeve]

Oak will take a couple years to season. Doug fir will be ready for next season if you stack it now in an open area with a cover on the top. If you can stack it so that the prevailing winds can blow through it, even better. But I'd still consider upgrading to the Super 27. It has excellent long burn times.

I'd be totally down for that except I doubt having used the stove a few times now the shop will just take it back in exchange for a different one... I suppose I could ask though!