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NYS DEC Part 247 Regulations

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by Awillard, May 29, 2010.

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  1. shagy

    shagy New Member

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    WRONG... DEC states this is the way I expressed before. You see you only believe otherwise ,your guessing . Not a good thing . Just sit back and wait to see whos correct. Dont whine if your wrong. But better yet start screaming and sign petitions.

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  2. Awillard

    Awillard New Member

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    Confirmed last evening at the DEC Public Hearing in Watertown: "indoor" units installed in a building away from the primary structure that is being heated will be considered an outdoor wood boiler and will be regulated. If installed before April 15th, 2011, these units will have to be replaced within 10 years from the date they were put into operation.
  3. horrocksd

    horrocksd Member

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    Reading over the proposed regs in 6 NYCRR, part 247, the following provision cause me some concern:

    - Page 4, Sec 247.3, b "prohibited fuels", 11 "coal"

    - Page 6, section 247.6: Emission limits (It appears my brand-new Econoburn 150 will not pass these regs, even though it's one of the most efficient and clean burnig boilers on the market). Yes, I'm a bit concerned.

    - Page 7, Stack height: "A residential size new outdoor wood boiler shall be equipped with a permanent stack extending a minimum of 2 feet above the peak of any roof structure located within 150 feet of the out door wood boiler and no less than 18 feet above ground level."

    -Page 12, Requirements for existing OWBs: "An existing OWB that commenced operation between Spetember 1, 2005 and April 14, 2011 must be replaced with a new outdoor wood boiler meeting the requirements of this Part or must be permanently removed from service within ten years of the commence operation date, but no later than August 2020."

    -Page 13: "No person shall operate an existing outdoor boiler in the northern heating zone between May 15 and August 31 or each year, or between April 15 and September 30 of each year elsewhere in the state."
  4. shagy

    shagy New Member

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    I know of Mr Willard... He had to jump through hoops to put up a personal wind turbine on his property that happens to be in a VERY rural area. He is a very intelligent person. Your statement of burning a device that was made to skirt every regulation out there is false. The EPA had no regulations on these. EricV can you tell us all why a person in the village of Adams NY or others have burnt their OWB and the village and didnt know they were there? How does that happen? When the village of Adams wrote the regulations for boilers this man stood up and admitted he had a boiler. He has a CL40 CB unit with the top of his chimney 14' from the ground. All homes in that area are old Victorian homes. On the other hand you can see a plume out of others. Is it the machine or the operator?
    DEC admitted they are not receiving 50 complaints on wood furnaces a week as the Governor's office stated. The DEC pointed out that they only had 70 or so furnaces that had complaints filed on in NY.
    The petition is about wood burning.So the joke is on you. This petition is about all the people that have bought a furnace and are told they will have to throw it away in 10 yrs. That includes all furnaces in a out buildings and outdoor boilers. Is that fair? We will see how brave you are at the hearing in Saranac Lake. Hope to hear you or anyone else to tell all the people that have these to just throw these away. Could make things a little more lively. In today's world though the rights of one far surpasses the rights of the majority
    Wait till the DEc and APA tell us we cant have 2 stroke motors in the park...only 4 stroke or paddles only
  5. shagy

    shagy New Member

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    Just returned from Alabama. They burn Thousands of acres every year of woodland. The EPA says that the average acre will emit about 156 "POUNDS" of particulate. Seeing that citys such as Atlanta , Columbus , Macon Ga ,Dothan , Montgomery Al are to the east of these and the west wind blows to the east. How on earth do they survive?
    VERY GOOD post white pine
  6. EricV

    EricV Feeling the Heat

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    "EricV can you tell us all why a person in the village of Adams NY or others have burnt their OWB and the village and didnt know they were there? How does that happen?"

    Quite simple. There are responsible users of OWB's that try not to bother their neighbors. They use better fuel, drier wood, etc. Not green wood that was a standing tree the day before. Those folks have no concern for anyone but themselves.

    The problem is the ones that don't.

    In either case there are none of the non gasification boilers that burn without vast amounts of pollution, they are just not built in a fashion that allows hot enough combustion.

    And I have already talked to DEC on several occasions on this topic. I don't need to be brave to talk to DEC.

    By they way, DEC has absolutely nothing to do with wind turbines so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

    And what does rights have to do with anything? No one has the right to foul another person's living space. It's that simple.
  7. Awillard

    Awillard New Member

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    Eric V - DEC has a lot to do with Wind Turbines when someone has to follow thier SEQR Process, Something the DEC did extremly poorly on the Part 247 Regulations.
  8. shagy

    shagy New Member

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    So its the operator's not the stoves
  9. DaveBP

    DaveBP Minister of Fire

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    I can't imagine that the dreaded OWB is any worse offender than many old time wood stove setups that have been running for years, WHEN loaded appropriately with dry wood matched to the current load. A Eurogasser is going to stink up the neighborhood if loaded with wet wood and run on low speed, too.

    Comparing standard OWBs to late model BMWs or Jags as someone did earlier in this thread is a bit of a stretch, though. An Edsel, maybe.
  10. heaterman

    heaterman Minister of Fire

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    That is correct. It's the rating of the unit that makes or breaks the deal from what our EPA air quality people say here in Michigan.
  11. Awillard

    Awillard New Member

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    But this is the NYS DEC that we are dealing with - Take an indoor unit and put it in a shed or your garage and in the DEC's eyes it becomes and outdoor wood boiler! So - if you take your EKO (current ad on this page) and install it inside your house - no regulation. But if you install it in a wood shed 50' from the house to keep wood bark, ashes, etc. outside (and keep your insurance rate down) - poof -it's an outdoor wood boiler and regulated! If it is installed before April 15, 2011, it does not even matter if it is EPA Phase II certified, you can only use it for ten year from the "commence operation date".
  12. shagy

    shagy New Member

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    [quote author="DaveBP" date="1275790342"]I can't imagine that the dreaded OWB is any worse offender than many old time wood stove setups that have been running for years, WHEN loaded appropriately with dry wood matched to the current load. A Eurogasser is going to stink up the neighborhood if loaded with wet wood and run on low speed, too.

    Comparing standard OWBs to late model BMWs or Jags as someone did earlier in this thread is a bit of a stretch, though. An Edsel, maybe.[/quote

    Maybe compared to a VW bug. Very correct post
  13. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    If those woodstoves have short chimneys, are surrounded by cold interior firebox walls and have a firebox big enough for you to fit into, you would be correct. But they don't.
  14. DaveBP

    DaveBP Minister of Fire

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    Actually, the mental image I had was of the venerable 55gal. drum with the stove pipe elbow out the sheet-metal covered window and maybe just above the roof drip edge. Terribly inefficient and I'm sure a combustion gas analyzer would gag, but when run with reasonably dry wood they didn't seem to bring the sky down on the public awareness like the OWBs are. Maybe I just never lived next to one of those.

    I think of it primarily as an assault on public courtesy. If someone is blasting Beethoven at 3 AM and keeping the neighborhood awake it is not time to outlaw high volume stereo systems. Fine the jerk for being a public nuisance. (Some would include public health in the case of some types of music).

    The dinosaurs went extinct without the world coming to an end. Maybe we'll be as lucky this time.
  15. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    There are noise laws which measure the decibel level.
    If I lived next to a dirty one I would be pissed off beyond belief. I know this because just the one stove that a guy about 1000 feet away burns improperly stinks up our entire block and more.

    If folks had to use dry seasoned split wood for OWB...well, a lot would not use 'em! That's a heck of a lot of work to get 30% or less efficiency out of.

    I know...we all long for those horse and carriage days, but since we now share the planet with 6 billions others, accommodations will have to be made. This is not big government intentionally picking on the little guy. Virtually every source of pollutants is regulated. As another example, the government is soon going to outlaw inefficient natural gas appliances....gas logs and low efficiency fireplaces, etc.

    From a big picture perspective, this is a good thing. One only need look at the oil lapping the shores of the Gulf to understand there are costs involved in wasting energy. As a society we have a choice. We can continue to allow for that "freedom" of inefficient burns and excess pollution, at the risk of public health, resource use and outright banning of ALL biomass appliances. Or, we can work together with regulators, the public and manufacturers to establish the best possible technologies. I choose the later.
  16. goosegunner

    goosegunner Minister of Fire

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    It is interesting how people in general draw the line in the sand just before themselves.

    What if we draw the line at Solar heat only no burning?

    What if we draw the line for driving vehicles a limited number of miles a year?

    Why do you need a snowmobile,atv, or tractor? most people in the cities don't use resources on such wasteful things.

    How about chainsaws, can't you get by with cross cut saws? My grandfather did for many years and they pollute much less than chainsaws.

    Do the wealthy really have the right to pollute the earth with there own private jets?

    Might as well limit your living space, because why should I heat a 2500 sq ft house when we could set the cap at 1000 sq ft.

    No heating of accessory buildings that aren't inhabited. Who really needs a heated garage anyway?

    The list could go on and on. It is just something to think about. I am sure that we all could come up with something in our life that could be on the wrong side of someone's line. So maybe we should reflect and climb down from all the tall horses and just think.

    gg
  17. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Thats the neat thing about being human. You can make those decisions about where the line is, then you can modify the decisions as circumstances change.

    There is a difference between being on the wrong side of that line, and being REALLY FAR on the wrong side. As I write this, my peace and quiet are being disturbed by lawnmowers, kids, a tractor somewhere and motor vehicles. On one hand I think we have swung too far that way - too much noise, too much light, too many roads, too many cars.......

    On the other hand, you cannot fix it by laws or regulations alone - that takes policy and planning for the long term. Again, we have to go back to the start of this particular problem. Laws were made about air pollution from wood burning. A bunch of manufacturers and retailers made tens of millions of dollars from finding a loophole - then fought to keep that loophole.

    Snowmobiles, ATVs and all that other stuff are very highly regulated and if folks were running one around their 2 acre property borders 24 hours a day (similar to a OWB) and they had no pollution or noise standards, I suppose we would hear something from the general public.
  18. goosegunner

    goosegunner Minister of Fire

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    Many would argue about the regulation being strict(Yellowstone Park complaints) If you can't see them or hear them do they not emit unnecessary pollution?

    I wonder what pollutes more. The guy in northern Wisconsin heating a 1000 sq ft house with his OWB burning dry wood or John Travolta flying his personal Jumbo jet around like a commuter plane. While living in Mansions requiring large amounts of energy to heat and cool.



    gg
  19. goosegunner

    goosegunner Minister of Fire

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    By the way I do enjoy your conversation and appreciate your point of view. I believe I have taken the thread off track so enough said by me.

    gg
  20. d-bone20917

    d-bone20917 New Member

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    As lawandorder says, the way the the proposed regulation is written it applies to boilers not designed to be installed in a location inhabited by humans. An indoor boiler is designed to be installed in a building inhabited by humans, so even if you put it in an outbuilding it is not subject to this regulation. They will need to change the way the proposed regulation is written if they want to consider indoor boilers in an outbuilding an OWB. I have been following this because I have an indoor wood boiler in an outbuilding. Below is the definition of an OWB from the proposed regulation.

    (12) 'Outdoor wood boiler'. A fuel burning device that (a) is designed to burn wood or other fuels; (b) is specified by the manufacturer for outdoor installation or installation in structures not normally occupied by humans; and (c) is used to heat building space and/or water via the distribution, typically through pipes, of a gas or liquid (e.g., water or water/antifreeze mixture) heated in the device.
  21. ken999

    ken999 New Member

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    Re-read through this thread. It WAS CONFIRMED at the Watertown meeting that ANY boiler in an outbuilding will be subject.
  22. DBoon

    DBoon Minister of Fire

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    Well, the guy in Northern Wisconsin is really far away from where I live, and perhaps he is far away from all his immediate neighbors as well. And if he is burning dry wood, then maybe nobody would notice anyway. Good for him for burning correctly and being considerate. I can't smell his wood smoke at all, and it doesn't drift into my house, so no big deal.

    As for John Travolta, well, I have to say that I have never smelled the exhaust of his jumbo jet while enjoying a nice spring or fall day outside, or had my wife awakened in the middle of the night by the exhaust from his jet seeping into my house.

    It's the people within a half a mile of me in a small valley village that I care about more. And often, they are not burning dry wood, burning correctly, or being considerate.
  23. 4acrefarm

    4acrefarm Member

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    The problem we have dealing with this issue is the same as health care, tax policy, energy, and so on. It's complicated. We have extremist on both sides of every issues screaming that the sky is falling, trying to cause a panic. After hearing about the government death squads that are going to decide whether our perents get to live or die I'm a little hesitent to beleve some of what I hear. ( by the way my 83 year old father has not been put to sleep yet) What I think we need is resonable inteligent and informed people willing to lsten to oposing points of veiw, argue their point and re wiliing to change their opinion if the facts warent it, without getting angry.

    Don't we all want to be left alone and be allowed to to as we want on our own property. Their is not one of us that wants our neighbor to infringe on our space. Smoke pouring into your house from your neighbors fire is no different than loud parties or having them drive their trucks though your garden. I think we must balance goernment intrusen and neighbor intusen and come to some kind of agreement. The politicians would not be spending any time on this if some of us did not intrude on our neighbors right to clean air.

    I have been gulty of this myself, I have a homebuilt boiler that smokes. I have been working diligently to improve the situation. My neighbors have been great I have had no complaints even though they probably should have. If I do get any complants I will do whatever I need to do to adress them, even if it means to stop burning untill I can afford a gasser. It helps that I do most of my burning in the evening when everone is inside with windows shut. I will not burn in the summer to save $50 dollars per month in hot water.

    I would compare the owb industry to the American auto industry in the 1970s. They are crusing along thinking they do not need to change while the world passes them in every way. Not BMW think 73caddy ineficient and overpriced. If they would all evolve We could all have gasses made in USA for reasonable prices burning less wood and poluting less.

    These are just my opinions ,not trying to force them on anybody but in the words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along" lol.
  24. Frozen Canuck

    Frozen Canuck Minister of Fire

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    Well here we all are again only a few months after plenty of discussion in other related threads on this topic. Some of us singing the same song about "freedom" to do as we please, where we please & when we please & to heck with everyone else. That's the "American" way, some of us say.

    Well turns out that not everyone agrees, esp. those who have to breathe the air fouled by dirty wood burners (that would include me as I own an OWB) & yes I am concious of my neighbors right to clean air. Sad fact is though that I cannot control the wind & everytime the wind shifts & they are downwind of my OWB I am fouling their air & they have a valid concern in my opinion.

    My nearest neighbor is 2-3 miles away, so it is far less of a concern than most units being discussed here but is still a problem. That is what brought me to this sight, I need a solution to this problem & I dont feel another OWB is the solution.

    Seems some or most in NY state feel the same as it appears that they are ready to cast a very wide net.

    I feel that most of us are misunderstanding the intent of this net. The net is intended not to eliminate all wood burners, just the dirty ones, esp. all of the OWB's as this is where the majority of complaints are aimed & that is what they are sick & tired of (the complaints).

    So they have designed a net that will catch all OWB's & yes it will get other units too, but from their viewpoint it is far more important to get all the OWB's. You see that is the target, the OWB's. After all these years of complaints & all the videos on the www. showing one of these OWB's smoking away they just want to be done with them, all of them not some or even most.

    That is why the net is built in the manner proposed, to catch all OWB's, not some or even most but all, 100%. They intend to deal with the majority of the complaints they receive in a total, complete & final way.

    As they proceed with elimination of 100% of the OWB's they will, as I have said catch other units in their net. These units if they are gasifiers & are operated with storage allowing for a complete burn everytime will be of little concern to them as they have much bigger fish to catch, why waste your time with small fish when there are so many large ones to catch?

    Think of it as a catch & release program (just like fishing you cant keep the small ones) as a properly operated gasifier will be far too low on the pollution scale to be bothered with in comparison to the OWB's & the owner of a properly operated gasifier will be able to back up their claim of burning cleaner with a simple flue gas test when needed.

    So at the end of it all I guess all of the OWB owners (me included) will have to step up to the plate & invest in cleaner burning units, some of us sooner than we had thought or planned, that is fair as we are the ones who bought & operated dirty units & caused this problem in the first place, so we should be prepared to take it on the chin when everyone else says enough is enough.
  25. leaddog

    leaddog Minister of Fire

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    I don't know how it is in Canada but I have been involved with gov here for many years and if you put a reg in place you HAVE to treat everyone equal. So if you make someone with a OWB stop you MUST make any and all others stop that come under the same diffition or else you are discrimating and the Reg will get thrown out in court. They can't make ANY exception for a Garn or Tarm if they come under the OWB clause. So they MUST make the deffinition at the time of drafting the reg.
    That's why it is so important that the people that are drafting this reg understand OWB, gasification, stack height, setback, downdraft, actual amount of polutants and the actual damage or non damage. I'm tell you all. This isn't about the few complaints they get. They get LOTS more complaint about other things that they aren't interested in solving. THERE IS NO MONEY IN WOOD BURNING AND NO TAX MONEY PERIOD....... This is a easy way to look like they are doing something and all us little people can do little to stop it.
    I went to a zoning meeting a couple years ago about just this type of reg.s at the local level. The zoning board had attended some meetings put on by the state and most of the info had come from NY telling how BAD ALL and I repeat ALL wood smoke was and how little NG, propane,fuel oil , and elect poluted. NY is leading the field on this and if the bio-fuel industry doesn't start to counter this it will be another generation when fosil fuel becomes VERY expensive before we start to catch up . Do I think that OWB are a small problem, YES, but when people learn there is a better way that doesn't cost more and is cheaper in the long run they will go away. If tarm would have come out with a boiler that would have addressed and given the people what they were looking for and had been promoted there wouldn't have been all those OWB smoking. Give CB credit. they knew how to promote and still do so quit crying and start educating, promoting, and if there is a better product let people know. I have NEVER seen or heard anything about gasification boilers accept on the net or at a couple show here in Michigan. Sorry I take that back, CB has advertized theirs in the local dealers adv.
    Most people around here that have heard about gasification have heard it from this very small fish.
    leaddog
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