Oil or Propane for backup heating

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Jan 29, 2009
41
Western PA
I have a Tarm 502 boiler with oil backup. The Tarm is about 15 years old but in good condition. However my 1000 gallon in-ground oil tank is 60+ years old. Although there is no evidence the tank is leaking, everything I've read says I am living on borrowed time with the tank and risking an expensive cleanup if it starts leaking. So, I am planning to replace the tank in the spring.

What I am wondering but can't seem to get a good read on is what will happen to the price of propane in the future with the rapidly increasing supply of shale gas and shale gas liquids. If propane is going to become cheap relative to heating oil it might make sense for me to convert to propane.

Is anybody wrestling with an oil/propane decision? Any insights into how the price of oil verses propane will trens in the future?
 
As with everything else, if we all had a crystal ball to predict the future it wouldn't matter because we would have all won last week's lotto and been $1 each richer after splitting the winnings.

In NJ, propane is ridiculous. Every supplier in the Northern part of the state seems to be some sort of con artist. I tried to get setup with propane to heat my shop on my residential property. I got WILDY varying prices for propane/gallon. A common theme was "introductory" pricing for the first fill. I asked multiple companies what the going, non-introductory rate, was and NONE could give me a straight answer. Some said "it depends what you use it for" (WHAT?!?!), other said "we can't predict the future to tell you what it will cost to refill the tank next month". Basically I got so turned off that I would probably NEVER consider propane for much more than cooking hamburgers.

Oil varies in price throughout the year, but at least I can call 20+ different suppliers and get on the spot honest per gallon pricing.

You already have an oil BACKUP burner. Put a 275 gallon Roth double wall stainless tank in your basement or outside and don't worry about it. If it is just your backup source, keep it simple and keep it cheap.

Just one man's opinion.

ac
 
AVC has some good points.. it can be difficult to nail down pricing for propane... you pay based on annual usage. There are few good things about propane and I say this currently using oil but have used propane in the past.

Depending on your electric rates, gas stove and dryer do make money sense. You are in western Pa.. I would imagine you have coal and nuclear supplying most of your electricity needs.. so probably pretty cheap and this maybe a moot point. We pay 18 cents a KWHR.. I know it is expensive... but with oil at 3.50 it almost makes sense to convert to electric hot water...almost.. but telling the oil guy to shove off would be nice.

If you have or plan on having an automatic generator on premise.. you might also consider propane. Condensing propane boilers are nice because they do not take a chimney flue. Very easy to vent out the side wall and they have excellent efficiency ratings. I would NEVER.. NEVER vent oil through the side wall.. what a nightmare, but that is a topic for another thread. I currently use oil, but because it is my second source I am going to go to propane condensing because a back up automatic generator and gas cooktop are in the works. Waiting for the oil unit to crap out... 5 years max is my guess. Gas cooktops are nice especially during power outages. One more thing.. you do not have to clean a propane boiler every year... it burns much cleaner than oil. If you can find some propane tanks cheap.. buy them out right. It will allow you to shop around and you will not have to pay "rental" fees when you do not use enough propane.
 
The propane business is a bit strange. I have a 500gal underground that feeds only my backup generator. They tried to give me the same speech... what are you using it for? How much a year? Blah Blah. They really want to RENT you their tanks.

I just cut em off and say.. I OWN all my own stuff. All I want you to do is come and fill it next week. What's your price? After shopping a few years... I've ended up on Amerigas.

Even then... The second or third year, when I called to say... Hey, come do the once a year fill.

The guy tells me. Well, the computer says you're going to take 200 gallons plus. I just laugh and say.. Ok.. Well, I'm reading the GAUGE on the tank, and will bet it takes around a hundred, as it has every year!

92 gallons later. I'm done with them for another year. Odd industry.

JP
 
I have a Tarm 502 boiler with oil backup. The Tarm is about 15 years old but in good condition. However my 1000 gallon in-ground oil tank is 60+ years old. Although there is no evidence the tank is leaking, everything I've read says I am living on borrowed time with the tank and risking an expensive cleanup if it starts leaking. So, I am planning to replace the tank in the spring.

What I am wondering but can't seem to get a good read on is what will happen to the price of propane in the future with the rapidly increasing supply of shale gas and shale gas liquids. If propane is going to become cheap relative to heating oil it might make sense for me to convert to propane.

Is anybody wrestling with an oil/propane decision? Any insights into how the price of oil verses propane will trens in the future?
Propane is prominent in this area and is what we use for most of our appliances.

Don't delay removing that tank. We're in the tank removal business and trust me you do not want to get into an environmental cleanup situation. If you opt to go propane, they can be placed underground (verify local code) as long as they are coated with epoxy and have an anode rod.
 
I would go with propane. Right now, propane and oil are just about equal in cost. Oil may be a tad more cost effective. For your current situation, I think that fuel storage options is the biggest benefit of propane.

There are a number of other benefits of propane (less maintenance, higher efficiencies, ability to run other appliances) that don't apply so much to your situation since you're using a back up in a wood boiler.

I have no idea what the future holds for oil vs. propane prices. I do think that we will see developments in LNG and CNG which may bring a more cost effective gas alternative to areas that are not serviced by natural gas mains. With a propane burner, it is typically an easy conversion to natural gas.

As has been mentioned, get that oil tank out yesterday. Sixty years is a long time and it's not difficult to get thousands of dollars tied up in cleaning up a leaking oil tank.
 
I'm with AVC8130.. pull the tank and get a new 275. Its only for back up any way.

I use about 25 gallons of propane every 3-4 months and am paying $5.62 a gallon.;sick I use it for the dryer, stove and the bbq.
I paid $344 for a 100 gallons of oil on July 7, $410 for a 100 gallons on Feb 28 and $363 for a 100 gallons on Nov 28. thats only for DHW

I really need to hook up my indirect storage tank for DHW, start hanging the clothes to dry in the boiler room and cooking over a wood flame.
 
$5.62... seriously? I hope you that was either a typo or a joke. I can have a 20 lb cylinder filled at a considerably lower rate than that around here.

I guess your location really drives the rates up? I would expect that most of Long Island is serviced by natural gas which probably allows one or two propane companies to name their price.

Rather than burn wood year round to heat DHW with an indirect, a simple electric hot water heater would probably save you a significant amount of money over your current oil set up. Just something to look into. I don't know what your electric rates are, but I doubt you would be spending anywhere near $1200 a year for hot water.
 
How much will your backup be used? If not much at all, I would seriously consider getting rid of the oil tank while it is still intact, and bypass propane for an electric boiler. That is, if the only thing you would be using the propane for is heat. If you have other uses for the propane (stove etc.?), I'd go that way. Either way, I would get rid of the oil before something real bad happens with that tank. 60 years on an in-ground tank sounds like a real long lucky streak to me, I'd cash out as soon as I could.
 
Contrary to popular consensus, I'd go with a 250 gallon oil tank in the basement and call it good. You can always burn french fry oil or recycled drain oil without being at the mercy of your local gas supplier.
 
$5.62... seriously? I hope you that was either a typo or a joke. I can have a 20 lb cylinder filled at a considerably lower rate than that around here.

I guess your location really drives the rates up? I would expect that most of Long Island is serviced by natural gas which probably allows one or two propane companies to name their price.

Rather than burn wood year round to heat DHW with an indirect, a simple electric hot water heater would probably save you a significant amount of money over your current oil set up. Just something to look into. I don't know what your electric rates are, but I doubt you would be spending anywhere near $1200 a year for hot water.
Lowest iv found is $13 a fill. Being that a 20Lb cyl holds about 4 gallon that comes to about $3.25 a gallon. Highest in my area is $20 a fill so thats $5 a gallon.
 
Id go with the propane,Oil is only going up from here,iv converted all my backup heaters(about 6)for various properties to propane. It cleaner burning,cheaper operating,way less maintenance, available during a power outage ect ect.
 
$5.62... seriously? I hope you that was either a typo or a joke. I can have a 20 lb cylinder filled at a considerably lower rate than that around here.

I guess your location really drives the rates up? I would expect that most of Long Island is serviced by natural gas which probably allows one or two propane companies to name their price.

Rather than burn wood year round to heat DHW with an indirect, a simple electric hot water heater would probably save you a significant amount of money over your current oil set up. Just something to look into. I don't know what your electric rates are, but I doubt you would be spending anywhere near $1200 a year for hot water.

Welcome to Long Island .
Sorry but I wish it was a typo. Nope $5.62 a gallon. I haven't had to fill a bbq tank since I have the bbq piped into the big tank but I think they get around $20-$25 for a 20lb tank.
Unfortunately Natural gas is at either end of my street but there aren't enough people who want to convert to make it worth National Grid's effort to bring it in.

I pay 8.5 cents a kilowatt. I don't know what a electric water heater would cost to run but some of that oil was actually used to heat the house every now and then when I didn't plan a wood burn properly. But I guess it cant be a $100 dollars a month in electric.

Hopefully when I get a 1000 gallons of water storage, burning wood for DHW want be so bad.

If you really want to get sick I pay almost $10,000 a year in taxes on an acre with a 1600 sq ft, 60 year old house.;sick

Contrary to popular consensus, I'd go with a 250 gallon oil tank in the basement and call it good. You can always burn french fry oil or recycled drain oil without being at the mercy of your local gas supplier.

I like that idea. I don't know why I never thought of that. I've thought about converting my diesel to reclaimed oil but not my house. Thanks, now I will abandon the truck conversion it was to much work any way. Now I will look into the house.
 
$10000 ? In property taxes Thats more than i pay on 17 houses 1 commercial 12,000 SF Apt building and an acre with a cabin in the country COMBINED. But then again its not in long Island. My Uncle moved out of LI years ago,he literally DID get taxed out.
 
You have no idea how stupid it is here. I would love to get the heck out of here. my 2 kids are almost finished with high school, but probably more tough is I have owned my own residential construction business for 22 years and to try to build up the client base all over again.... uuggh
 
I see you have a Dmax Truck Mike ,My son has one and its on my bucket list ,how is it running. Mine is a silverado gasser 2500 with a 3" lift but it works so nice.
 
Notch it up to preference in the area of the country you live and whats available and reasonable in cost. In the N.E. both oil and gas are available and my thoughts leaned towards gas when it was time to decide. The burner (FHA) has been new since 2008 and I still consider it brand new because we burn 24/7 in the winter months so this unit has not seen alot of action. It burns clean and the unit itself needs very little attention.

My second wood burning stove, which I consider my backup or secondary, serves as supplemental heat on the very cold days when the addition off the rear of the house struggles with the main stove and is also there as a backup should the main stove have a problem. I'd kind of consider the Gas heat the 3rd option in my case.
 
I love it. I bought it used in 07 for $30k it had 20k on the odometer and all the bells and whistles. It has a Banks tuner system,ram air, intercooler, with SS Exhuast,6 inch lift, chrome rims, spray bed liner, air bag suspension in rear and a 5th wheel trailer set up

Only thing is I think I'm having trouble with the tranny although 3 mechanics and 4 tranny shops including an Allison shop has said there is nothing wrong. Meanwhile I get this slamming or bumping feeling when I let of the gas pedal and them step back on it. It feels the thing went into neutral and then is reengaging. It started about 2 years ago.

Anyway sorry if we've high jacked this thread.
If it helps get ir back on track, I thought of hooking propane up to the diesel!
 
Thanks to everybody who responded to my post. It is clear there is no obvious choice at this moment. I do have the winter to research further. I agree that oil is dirtier and an oil burner requires a lot more maintenance. Also, the newer gas/propane burners are specd at 90+ percent efficiency verses my current backup oil burner specd at 75 - 80 percent efficiency. Our house is all electric except for the oil furnace, and electricity costs 14.7 cents per Kwh. Thrifty propane posts their prices online. Their current price for 250 gallon is 1.70 per gallon. I see propane tanks in the yard at a couple homes in the neighborhood. I might go knock on a couple of doors and get some first person reports on their experience with propane. I will contunue to research this over the winter.
 
Good luck with the research and stick around and keep us posted. Stay warm.
 
1.70 ???? Its a no brainer then... go propane. ;). Invest in a 500 gallon tank or 2 250's and shop around for the best price.
 
This might sound nuts, but I am still in the research phase...

What about PELLETS for the backup? Rather than an onboard oil or propane burner, a pellet burner could be installed and fed from a hopper big enough to hold a week's worth of pellets at minimum.

ac
 
This might sound nuts, but I am still in the research phase...

What about PELLETS for the backup? Rather than an onboard oil or propane burner, a pellet burner could be installed and fed from a hopper big enough to hold a week's worth of pellets at minimum.

ac
I owned an outside woodboiler at one time and the only thing that made it difficult was what to do when you went away. 1 week may sound like alot of time, but what if you wanted to go to Florida for 2 weeks. I think your back up should be self sufficient, but that is just my opinion.
 
I owned an outside woodboiler at one time and the only thing that made it difficult was what to do when you went away. 1 week may sound like alot of time, but what if you wanted to go to Florida for 2 weeks. I think your back up should be self sufficient, but that is just my opinion.

I agree. I have seen some pretty big pellet hoppers. I have seen people build their own that would hold a full ton. That should last 2 weeks pretty easily.

Is this really a bad idea? It seems that the same boiler could be used for pellets and wood with a pellet burner installed instead of the usual oil gun.

ac
 
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