Oil vs pellet

[2biker]

I try to read some forums every night. Ninety nine percent of you guys know what you're talking about. So, I'm looking for ideas, hopefully from the 99 percenters. I live in southern CT. Our house is a 3800 sq ft colonial ( not an open floor plan). It is 13 rooms with 4 heat zones, an oil fired hot water boiler. We also have an extra hot water holding tank, because we usually have at least 2 showers running together in the morning. Currently, we go through about 1200 gallons during the heating season plus another 300 during the summer. I got a CB-3 Jotul in a 20 x20 family room with a 15' ceiling. I usually burn 4+ chords. I want to cut down on the oil without cutting down on the thermostat. (We keep the house at 71 degrees during the winter) So my question is, how much would an add on pellet boiler reduce the oil consumption by? What would be a ballpark figure on cost? How much would be my winter tonnage of pellets? Because 4 rooms are located over an insulated unheated garage, I have to depend on zone heating for those. The wood stove is just use to keep the family room and kitchen comfortable, and keep that heat zone off.

 

[chken]

1200 gallons of oil is BTU equivalent to 10 tons of pellets. Operationally, if you replaced oil for pellets, you could save about $150 a ton, or about $1500 a year. I'm not counting the 300 gallons of oil in the Summer. You should get a large heat pump water heater to replace that hot water usage. Depending upon incentives from your state or utility, a HPWH can be paid off between zero and 2 years, typically. Yep, some states offer so much the HPWH is free.

How much for a pellet boiler? There's Kedel, Biowin Windhager, Okefens and others, that are highly automated European pellet boilers. Others who have those know more, but I believe you would need one of the larger, if not the largest units those companies make. So much of the cost is in the details. Do you vent into existing oil burner chimney? Probably needs a stainless steel liner. Any unusual repiping/valving zone needs? Room for pellet storage? I'd say count on $15k to $20k, before any state incentives. I believe NH, VT and Maine have large $5k and $6k incentives. Don't know about CT. Most people here have stated that their payback period is roughly 7 to 15 years.

There are other alternatives, like Pellergy which is a boiler injector replacement, or Harman, but they typically require much more attention.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

I try to read some forums every night. Ninety nine percent of you guys know what you're talking about. So, I'm looking for ideas, hopefully from the 99 percenters. I live in southern CT. Our house is a 3800 sq ft colonial ( not an open floor plan). It is 13 rooms with 4 heat zones, an oil fired hot water boiler. We also have an extra hot water holding tank, because we usually have at least 2 showers running together in the morning. Currently, we go through about 1200 gallons during the heating season plus another 300 during the summer. I got a CB-3 Jotul in a 20 x20 family room with a 15' ceiling. I usually burn 4+ chords. I want to cut down on the oil without cutting down on the thermostat. (We keep the house at 71 degrees during the winter) So my question is, how much would an add on pellet boiler reduce the oil consumption by? What would be a ballpark figure on cost? How much would be my winter tonnage of pellets? Because 4 rooms are located over an insulated unheated garage, I have to depend on zone heating for those. The wood stove is just use to keep the family room and kitchen comfortable, and keep that heat zone off.

What town are you located in?
Can do a heat load calculation based on heating degree days for your location.
What do you pay for oil per gallon?
What is the cost of pellets per ton in your area?

 

[2biker]

Thanks for your dose of reality, Chicken. I just thought that a ton of pellets was equivalent to a cord of wood. And because I am able to keep my stove running 24/7 on 4 chords,I thought that 4 tons of pellets would be able to keep my water temp around 195 degrees through the winter. And, I was hoping that you were going to tell me that for around 5k for a boiler with a horizontal vent. But, if you are telling me that it will cost 15-20k plus the cost of pellets, I won't live that long to see a payback. I guess that leaves me with solar or geothermal left to explore.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Would you hire a contractor to do the installation or would/can you do most of the work yourself?

 

[goosegunner]

Thanks for your dose of reality, Chicken. I just thought that a ton of pellets was equivalent to a cord of wood. And because I am able to keep my stove running 24/7 on 4 chords,I thought that 4 tons of pellets would be able to keep my water temp around 195 degrees through the winter. And, I was hoping that you were going to tell me that for around 5k for a boiler with a horizontal vent. But, if you are telling me that it will cost 15-20k plus the cost of pellets, I won't live that long to see a payback. I guess that leaves me with solar or geothermal left to explore.

Just remember the 4 cords is not heating your house, it is supplementing. You are heating with 4 cords plus 1200 gallons of oil. Its all about btu's needed.

gg

 

[chken]

Thanks for your dose of reality, Chicken. I just thought that a ton of pellets was equivalent to a cord of wood. And because I am able to keep my stove running 24/7 on 4 chords,I thought that 4 tons of pellets would be able to keep my water temp around 195 degrees through the winter. And, I was hoping that you were going to tell me that for around 5k for a boiler with a horizontal vent. But, if you are telling me that it will cost 15-20k plus the cost of pellets, I won't live that long to see a payback. I guess that leaves me with solar or geothermal left to explore.

I didn't think it sounded so bad. You can eliminate/replace 1500 gallons of oil! 1200 gallons by the pellet boiler and 300 gallons by a large HPWH. You're probably spending close to $6000 on your heat and hot water. Someone with that large an energy requirement typically is a good candidate to switch and get a shorter payback period, especially if your state has any incentives and/or low-interest financing plans.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

I didn't think it sounded so bad. You can eliminate/replace 1500 gallons of oil! 1200 gallons by the pellet boiler and 300 gallons by a large HPWH. You're probably spending close to $6000 on your heat and hot water. Someone with that large an energy requirement typically is a good candidate to switch and get a shorter payback period, especially if your state has any incentives and/or low-interest financing plans.

$6,000 for oil is $3,000 for pellets, roughly.
So, $3,000 in your pocket ..... and feeling warmer at the same time.
The math can not be easier ... I would think?

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Check out the numbers for Hartford, CT
If you self install, I think you can have a payback of around 4 to 5 years.

But, more importantly, your house is very poorly insulated!
You only have 5,362 Heating Degree Days (pretty warm climate already), but an oil consumption of 1,500 gallons

 

[chken]

Check out the numbers for Hartford, CT
If you self install, I think you can have a payback of around 4 to 5 years.

But, more importantly, your house is very poorly insulated!
You only have 5,362 Heating Degree Days (pretty warm climate already), but an oil consumption of 1,500 gallons

If you recall, only 1200 was for heat, the other 300 was for DHW in non-heating season. Still, that works out to a K-factor of 4.5. And, that's with 4 cords in a Jotul. I'm thinking some insulation projects might be food for thought.

 

[TimfromMA]

My house is 2400 sq ft. My pellet stove is upstairs so it's heating 1800sqft. We have on demand hot water through our oil furnace and the oil heat keeps our downstairs just warm enough so the pipes don't freeze.

Before the pellet stove, we would use about 600 gallons of oil from October - April and another 150 gallons the rest of year for just our hot water . At $3.50 per gallon that comes out to $2625 per year in oil costs.

After the pellet stove, we only use 200 gallons per year for hot water and keeping our downstairs above freezing for a total oil cost of $700 and 3 tons of pellets at $300 per ton for a total pellet cost of $900

Before the pellet stove, we were spending approximately $2625 annually
After the pellet stove, we are spending approximately $1600 annually

Total annual savings : $1025

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

My house is 2400 sq ft. My pellet stove is upstairs so it's heating 1800sqft. We have on demand hot water through our oil furnace and the oil heat keeps our downstairs just warm enough so the pipes don't freeze.

Before the pellet stove, we would use about 600 gallons of oil from October - April and another 150 gallons the rest of year for just our hot water . At $3.50 per gallon that comes out to $2625 per year in oil costs.

After the pellet stove, we only use 200 gallons per year for hot water and keeping our downstairs above freezing for a total oil cost of $700 and 3 tons of pellets at $300 per ton for a total pellet cost of $900

Before the pellet stove, we were spending approximately $2625 annually
After the pellet stove, we are spending approximately $1600 annually

Total annual savings : $1025

These are nice numbers!

One thing I like (need) to point out is that these numbers really show the in-efficiency of a the pellet stove.
Not just your pellet stove, but pellet stoves in particular.

Why?
There are very few pellet stoves on the market that have secondary combustion air, and as a result all this energy is not properly used and goes to waste up the stack.
It was the same with pre-EPA wood stoves, then EPA wood Stoves, then catalytic wood stoves and now hybrid wood stoves.
It takes about 20 to 25 years before the manufacturers get the message.

With a state of the art pellet boiler you would have saved around 50% of $2,625 or $1,312 (60% of $2,625 = $1,575)
This is $1,312-$1,025=$262 ($1,575-$1,025=$550) what is shoved up the chimney or direct vent.

Do I sound like a complete ass or a retard ?

My message: if a customer is willing to spent $5,000 on a pellet stove (room heater) with a 5 year pay back, then it should be doable to convince this same customer to go for a state of the art pellet boiler with the slightly higher payback for a manual fed state of the art pellet boiler.

 

[TimfromMA]

One thing for me that you can't put a price on is how nice it looks and feels in the living room.

The look and feel of a fire over in the corner is really nice and cozy. We will often turn off all the lights and just enjoy the warm glow of the fire. You just don't get this ambiance <sp?> with a pellet boiler.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

One thing for me that you can't put a price on is how nice it looks and feels in the living room.

The look and feel of a fire over in the corner is really nice and cozy. We will often turn off all the lights and just enjoy the warm glow of the fire. You just don't get this ambiance <sp?> with a pellet boiler.

Ambiance from a pellet boiler .............. Windhager FireWIN, a passion for Fire and Water

 

[Fred61]

I do like the unit above but in my opinion, anything with a fan in it sitting in my living room cancels out any ambiance. Had a pellet stove, burned wood in stoves for 50 years but for most of those years I had to open the door on the stove to enjoy the flame. Looked stupid with a 2 foot box stove. My first and only stove with glass front was my VC Defiant Encore and it had no fan to bug me.

 

[velvetfoot]

I like the concept. Space heating, ambiance plus heat in far off rooms.

 

[DZL_Damon]

Ambiance from a pellet boiler .............. Windhager FireWIN, a passion for Fire and Water

I miss the glow in my living room from my wood stove as well. This looks like the best of both worlds. The only thing I really like about having it down stairs in the basement is I don't have to worry about making a small mess when I clean it every month or 2.

 

[DZL_Damon]

Thanks for your dose of reality, Chicken. I just thought that a ton of pellets was equivalent to a cord of wood. And because I am able to keep my stove running 24/7 on 4 chords,I thought that 4 tons of pellets would be able to keep my water temp around 195 degrees through the winter. And, I was hoping that you were going to tell me that for around 5k for a boiler with a horizontal vent. But, if you are telling me that it will cost 15-20k plus the cost of pellets, I won't live that long to see a payback. I guess that leaves me with solar or geothermal left to explore.

A ton of pellets is 16.5MMbtu and a cord of dry (20% moisture) wood varies depending on species, but lets say 22MMbtu. Factor in efficiencies of high 80's-low 90% for pellet boilers vs the standard 55-75% for a wood stove and the ton of pellets results in about the equal amount of heat that cord of wood ... would!

You also do not need a $22k install... you could get away with a 10-15! Doing some work yourself can save ample amounts of money. You could also plumb up a smaller pellet boiler without a 3 ton hopper that would take care of the heat load 85% of the time and tie it in so your original system comes on to help if the loop temperatures are too low for peak design days. Set it up with a 500-1000lbs pellet set up that you can hand fill and it will last 1-2 weeks at least.

At $3.50/gal of oil and $200/ton of pellets, you could see a $2200/year pay back. That could be as low as a 5-7 year ROI.

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

A ton of pellets is 16.5MMbtu and a cord of dry (20% moisture) wood varies depending on species, but lets say 22MMbtu. Factor in efficiencies of high 80's-low 90% for pellet boilers vs the standard 55-75% for a wood stove and the ton of pellets results in about the equal amount of heat that cord of wood ... would!

You also do not need a $22k install... you could get away with a 10-15! Doing some work yourself can save ample amounts of money. You could also plumb up a smaller pellet boiler without a 3 ton hopper that would take care of the heat load 85% of the time and tie it in so your original system comes on to help if the loop temperatures are too low for peak design days. Set it up with a 500-1000lbs pellet set up that you can hand fill and it will last 1-2 weeks at least.

At $3.50/gal of oil and $200/ton of pellets, you could see a $2200/year pay back. That could be as low as a 5-7 year ROI.

Or just bag feed it.
The BioWIN holds 8 bags or 320 Lbs