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  1. ERICCROKER

    ERICCROKER New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
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    I recently bought a house with a wood stove. I then learned behind the wall where the pipe went was an old fireplace that was covered up and the pipe was put up the chimney. The stove was kind of old so i removed it in hopes of cutting a hole into the stone facing the put up to cover the old fireplace and sliding the insert in and attaching the old stove pipe some how. I bought a used old wood fire insert. The part i don't understand is the insert has 5 holes about 3 inch in diameter in the top instead of one out let. is it still possible to let that vent straight up the chimney and remove the old stove pipe in there now. If that isn't enough detail i will try and explain anything else i can. There is no name on the insert. also the old fire place is very large is it possible just to put the insert on bricks and not have any support on the sides or top.
    thanks
    eric croker

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  2. martel

    martel Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
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    eric,
    welcome to hearth net!! There are many people here to help in your situation (granted I am pretty new at this stuff so will wait for others to chime in). I expect the other guys will give a bunch of options- some pictures naturally will be helpful.

    you came to the right place.
  3. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
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    12,100
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    This is a Sunbeam Benefire Insert - I remember the 5 holes in the top!

    It was not made for any sort of a direct connection to a stove pipe. I'm certain a manifold of sorts could be built from stainless steel to collect the smoke. However, the entire installation sounds questionable - I would suggest having a pro (building official , chimney sweep, fireplace guy) looking at the entire situation.
  4. Corie

    Corie Minister of Fire

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    Loc:
    Halifax, VA
    I agree 100% Craig.

    If the stove is old enough to 5 - 3 inch holes (Which has a cross-sectional area of 35.3 in^2, an 8" flue has 50.3 in^2 and a 6" flue has 28.3 in^2) and not really be meant for a direct connection to a flue, I would personally hesitate to install it. Sure, a manifold could be fabbed up, but for safety's sake, I would consider a more modern insert.
  5. ERICCROKER

    ERICCROKER New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
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    Just wondering though once it is into the old fireplace wouldn't it just vent up into the chimney? that is what i was told from the gentelman who sold the unit. He said that if it has a sold base to sit on in the place of the old fire place and i make sure it is pretty well sealed that the smoke would vent pretty straight up the chimney. He told me to make sure the inside of the chimney gets cleaned since it probably hadn't been used for a while.
    thanks
    eric croker
  6. Corie

    Corie Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    Loc:
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    That's the way it used to be, well, before there were really regulations for this type of thing. Now however, this is not an option. A smokeproof seal must be made between the insert and the chimney and that does not mean simply sealing the area around the fireplace face.

    You will more than likely, depending of course on the condition and size of your chimney, need to line the entire chimney with a stainless steel liner, before making a direct connect to the chiminey from the insert and having a block off plate which prevents room air for dilluting the smoke going up the chimney.
  7. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Eric In the past I have jumped all over such people trying to install unlisted stoves. I want you to factor in all the ramifictions. Is Heat more important than your personal safety or your famillies? If yes, then all means install this stove, especially if you have a death wish. If you value your life or famillies, then loose the stove and we here, can help advise on a safer option.

    Official code wise, that stove cannot be legally installed. I don't care ,what the pervious owner says or claims. That installation is not permitted by any code today.
  8. berlin

    berlin New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
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    299
    Loc:
    Western NY
    elk, in some circumstances unlisted stoves work just fine and are perfectly safe. Each situation is different therefor his best bet is to have someone knowlegable come out in person and assess the most effective way to accomplish what he wants to do.

    well, elk that depends where one lives and what codes, if any are law there.

    Where it's not part of local law, I'm a big believer that the spirit of the code is more important than the letter. It is better to know why the code is as it is and to what ends it was written, when one learns this, One is able to address any situation, even ones that the codes may not have foreseen.
  9. Corie

    Corie Minister of Fire

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    berlin, I've noticed you enjoy playing the devil's advocate on somes issues. However, I do agree that this situation will be best remedied by someone knowledge that can actually come out and assess the situation.

    But, based on what Eric has said, it is clear he doesn't understand all that is necessary, not to make the installation legal according to code, but simply to make it safe. I'll agree that plenty of unlisted stoves have been and can be installed to function properly. This stove though, will require a 5 -> 1 pipe adapter manifold and then at least some type of block off plate, plus a reline may or may not be necessary based on the chimney condition and flue size.

    I personally lean towards it being an awful lot of work for an old and very outdated stove.
  10. martel

    martel Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
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    207
    you bought this old insert used?
  11. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    In all defferenct to Berlin this is taken from the International code adopted by all 50 states as their base code. In 1979 the only agency to write the label and listing and testing was UL labs . Required on all stoves sold in USA. They had to be labled and listed by UL or tested to UL standards. by agencies approved byUL. In USA there is no other standard to comply, the only one is UL approved. Meaning if the stove is not ul listed it can not satisfy the listing and labeling deffinition of code, either The international Mechanical codes or NFPA 211

    International Mechanical codes Recognized by all states
    Chapter 3 general Regulations.

    301.3 Listed and Labled
    All appliances regulated by this code shall be listed and labled

    301. 4 Labeling
    shall be in accordance with the procedures set forth in Sections 301.4.1 through 301.4.2.3

    301.4.1 Testing An approved agency shall test a representative sample of the mechanical equipment and appliances being labeled to the relevant standard or standards. The approving agency ( Ul in the case of wood stoves) shall maintain a record of all test preformed. The records shall provide sufficient details to verify compliance with test standards.

    301.4.2 Inspections and Identifications
    The approved agency shall periodically perform an inspection, which shall be in- plant if necessary, and appliances to be labeled of the mechanical equipment. The inspection shall verify that the labeled mechanical equipment and appliances are representative of the mechanical equipment and appliances tested.

    301.5 Label Information
    A permanent factory- applied name plate(s) shall be affixed to the appliance on which shall appear in legible lettering the manufacturer’s name or trade mark, the model number, serial number and the seal or mark of the testing agency
    3. Fuel burning units the hourly rating in Btu/h (w): the type of fuel approved for use with the appliance; and the required clearances



    Many town of inspectors may not know the code, therfore do not enforce what they do not know. It is possible an unlisted stove can be installed inspected and approved. Most insurance companies will require proof of UL listing and certificate of inspections or compliance. In any case the code is clearly stated. The reason ul stepped in was to establish a guideline to establish minium safety standards . It is these installations that dictated the government to protect the innocent. I would think it wise not to promote of suggest one can scoff eforts to protect the public. The history of aphixiation and lack of safety problemated these codes. So I quess you have satistical data to back up your post? Please enlighten all. If you cannot support your post then for the sake of safety please refrain from promoting others its ok to illegally install unlisted stoves.

    With that said, all stove installed prior to code requiring label and listing are grandfathered and ok to continue there use in that installation. Once removed from that location excepting repairs, they can not be put back into service, or installed in another home or location.

    factoring safety I made my best recomendation loose this stove. There is too much involved manufacturing welding to make this stove code compliant. In my town and knowing the letter of the code I can never approve its installation. In a court as the inspecting official I cannot claim ingorance. I am certified to protect the public even if it means protecting you from yourself. I do two types of inspections. The first one Is to ensure your safety. The second one is to figure what went wrong. If I do the first one correctly, then chances are, I do not have to make the second kind
  12. berlin

    berlin New Member

    Joined:
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    Loc:
    Western NY
    well elk i think this is the key: "Required on all stoves SOLD in USA."

    Do not be offended by my post. It was not my intention. As i mentioned before i am always concerned more with real safety and less with specific code language. Anything can be made to work, and work well. Unfortunately some codes have too much special interest input which leads to safety, sometimes yes, but also to pork for them. Some may say I occasionally play devils advocate, however, it is my intention to challenge bad ideas, and get people thinking more about big pictures, rather than getting bogged down in meaningless details. Btw, i also mentioned that the only true way to accuratly and responsibly address the original posters situation is for a professional to have a look in person, not posters spewing advice and hoping we get it right over the internet.
  13. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Not offended and correct about the advice of the inspecting official looking at the stove
    This instalation of just pushing it into place and trying to seal the perimeters should not be allowed.
    One a while back such an installation was posted here with pictures. The entire brick facing had black
    soot where smoke and exhaust leaked for years. Unfortunately this tends to be the norm as, I have
    wittnessed this too often. I wish Eric had posted his intentions prior to purchasing the stove,
    All here would have advised not to purchase his current stove. Another thing I had posted, is a primer
    for new stove buyers and purchasing a used wood stove. An effort to educate newbies from making this mistake
    I will re post the primers so that all can make further suggestions and add to it. Then once edited
    Maybe Mo or craig can attach it as a sticky Come late Aug. when stove buying season ramps up we
    at hearth net will have this info available/. the best way we can help the un educated stove buyer,
    is to educate them before they purchase. Buying first then asking questions later puts people like Eric
    behind the eight ball. Remember for a vetran installer welder could make a stove safer to opperate but not
    a novic
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