Ontario and their Green expectations

[woodgeek]

I guess that is my bottom line with all my calculations and musings. If the economics of a family dictate only one vehicle, depending on their situation, an EV may not a realistic choice.

The Toyota RAV4 has both EV and ICE models for comparison, the break even is 7.7 years just on operating costs and with the $14,000 incentive (not sure if that is the actual amount). At what point does battery replacement kick in?

The carbon footprint of equal vehicles is EV=2.8 vs. ICE=5.3. That is assuming that your electricity is generated from non-FF sources... Natural gas is still in the mix for Ontario even though the coal-fire plants have been taken out of the stream.

Sure. Of course, I agree that at current range and prices a BEV is a poor choice for the Canadian back-country....my point is that in 5 years that calculation will look very different....ranges will be double what is currently the case, and prices could be less than comparable ICE vehicle up front....so the payback is '0'. When that happens....Ontarians will say...where were our leaders when they were supposed to be building this infrastructure?

 

[saskwoodburner]

Sigh. I disagree with the Forbes numbers that describe my situation, and do so inaccurately based upon my first hand experience. The article claims that Leaf range drops by -58% at 20°F. I am telling you that that is absurd based upon my own first-hand experience at that temperature and below. I am seeing more like a 35% drop down to 0°F, and that is partially due to snow tires.

As for your concern...correct, I do not drive around in the winter with the windows all fogged up and unable to see. We do use defrost settings and cabin heat in the winter time. We just don't put it on 'max' and leave it there 100% of the time. That is the only way I can **imagine** getting the mileage that low. I could also drive an ICE car around with the handbrake on, and then write about how ICE cars get bad mileage...and did you know that the hand-brakes fail too often?

It also appears that you misunderstand my situation and think I live in Florida, and have never logged any miles below 50°F. In my first post I was careful to report a modest decrease in range, and at what temps my first-hand experience extends to. IF you would prefer to think the car shuts down and becomes a brick a couple degrees colder than my experience...so be it. But that is neither what the Forbes article says, nor what thousands of Leaf drivers in Norway report.

In summary: my wife and I have to drive in black ice, light snow and temps down to the single °F and we have found the leaf to be the best winter car we have ever owned....it starts reliably, warms up the cabin and seats quickly, and its low weight distribution and traction control give it amazing handling on ice and snow (w/ snow tires). While the range does drop as much as 35% at our winter temps, that is not a problem for **us**.

Based on that experience, I can conclude that future 200+ mile BEVs will also be great, reliable winter cars, contrary to the intuition of non-EV drivers that think that all batteries stop working below freezing, and Forbes magazine. Whether the BEVs will be useful in Northernmost Ontario, Manitoba and Saskatchewan, will depend on the fraction of trips owners will need to take in the dead of winter that are well over 100 miles, whether it is their second car (as here) and the future presence of high-speed chargers there, which is unknown.

So....now that you got that random babble about Florida weather and driving with e-brakes on and such out of your system, and think your experience is the only valid one, how do you suppose your car would fare in a colder climate? I don't care how it works in SE PA, I care how it would work in Northern Ontario, or Prince Albert, Saskatchewan.

What are your heat degree days for the entire year?

BTW, I don't think Norway is colder than right here SK, in fact most likely warmer.

 

[Lake Girl]

But the plan I have seen so far has done little to promote "infrastructure" ... 10 new charging stations on the 401 doesn't promote the ease of use for most of Ontario who may consider an EV (that's already been announced). No mention for the rest of the province. I would suggest that infrastructure of installing charging stations is the place of government ... not so much the crazy incentives.

 

[woodgeek]

So....now that you got that random babble about Florida weather and driving with e-brakes on and such out of your system, and think your experience is the only valid one, how do you suppose your car would fare in a colder climate? I don't care how it works in SE PA, I care how it would work in Northern Ontario, or Prince Albert, Saskatchewan.

What are your heat degree days for the entire year?

BTW, I don't think Norway is colder than right here SK, in fact most likely warmer.

I think we are in complete agreement sask. I presented my first hand cold-weather experience for what it was, completely positive, and made clear what its temps limits were (down to 0°F) from the get go. The article we were arguing about was talking about conditions within my experience, and I am allowed to state that their findings are not at all consistent with my experience under comparable conditions (20°F). I have also said that I understand that Norway is warmer than your climate (above) and that I understand that -50°C is a lot colder than -20°C (because I have lived for years in places much colder that SE PA).

You seem to be confused that I was saying something else....sorry I was confusing.

I guess I was implying that my experience does suggest that near future BEVs would likely be quite appealing to users and taxpayers in Southern Ontario, with little concern for winter performance, based upon my (and Norway's) experience.

If you really want to know how these cars perform at -50°C, which apparently you all experience >10 months a year, 24 hours a day, you will need to get a different user report.

A separate question is whether a provincial incentive that disproportionately benefits the higher population Southern areas is fair. It seems to me that all sorts of things like this happen all the time. There is likely a certain amount of infrastructure spending in the North that is not entirely paid for by taxes from the local population....are all the Southerners really taking and not giving anything in return? For every line item on the provincial budget? Tell me more.

 

[woodgeek]

But the plan I have seen so far has done little to promote "infrastructure" ... 10 new charging stations on the 401 doesn't promote the ease of use for most of Ontario who may consider an EV (that's already been announced). No mention for the rest of the province. I would suggest that infrastructure of installing charging stations is the place of government ... not so much the crazy incentives.

PA is really quite dumb about this. They argued for **years** and then dropped a lot of public cash to build chargers at all the turnpike rest areas...the problem, they are installing slow chargers that require (at best) 4 hours to charge your vehicle. A complete waste that essentially no-one will ever use. Instead, private industry has been very good about installing high-speed chargers (that take 30-60 minutes to charge) all over the area but there are two problems...(1) they didn't install them until after there was a decent user base (of people relying on home charging) and (2) they **can't** install them in highway rest areas by law, as that is public land not for commercial activity. So, we have lots of high-speed chargers now, and NONE of them are at highway rest areas where there are food/bathrooms etc. All are a half mile off the highway, often in a remote area with no food or amenities. Ugh.

If Ontario is like the states, you will follow the following order....(1) incentives (2) EVs charging at home, no road trips beyond half the battery range (3) high-speed (private) charger network sufficient to allow road trips. Around here (1) was 2010 (2) was 2013 and (3) is right around now, but not really convenient yet. California is about 2-3 years ahead of us on this curve, and New England about 1 year ahead.

 

[Lake Girl]

All are a half mile off the highway, often in a remote area with no food or amenities. Ugh.

Makes absolutely no sense...
Not too sure how they set up the highway rest areas but commercial activity is very evident on the ones on the 401 ... McDonalds, Tim Hortons, and other food chains along with fueling stations. Might be on a lease system...

 

[woodgeek]

Yeah...we have food service from chains in the rest areas, but the buildings are state owned and the businesses are 'contractors', IIRC.