Might help for ease of understanding, instead of saying it “thickens”, say, as oil thins as the temperature increases but a multi weight oil thins at a slower rate than a straight weight.
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OPE -> 5W-30 Synth
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Might help for ease of understanding, instead of saying it “thickens”, say, as oil thins as the temperature increases but a multi weight oil thins at a slower rate than a straight weight.
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No, it doesn’t thicken. It still thins as temperature increases, just at a lower rate than straight weight.
Oh, yes it does! Enormously. This is the phenomena that manufacturers are trying to counter, by choosing multi-weight oils. Example, let’s say SAE 30 viscosity goes too high at cold temperatures to permit easy starting, but SAE 10 is too thin when hot, they use SAE 10W-30 which starts like SAE 10 when cold and runs like SAE 30 when hot.
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I probably could have stated it better, I agree. I'll try again.
Fact:
A 20W-50 at 100c will have the same viscosity as SAE 50 at 100c.
At 0c the 20W-50 with have a lower viscosity than the SAE 50 at 0c.
In general (big picture), oil viscosity is inverse to temperature. The colder it is the more viscous it is and the hotter it is the less viscous it is.
Theory:
Above 100c the multi grade oil viscosity will continue to increase because of the additives that give it the ability to increase its viscosity as it heats up continues beyond 100c affording more high heat protection. Essentially, your saying the multi grade does not "thin" as fast as the straight grade as temperature increases.
My opinion is the theory is incorrect.
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It's was poorly written and didn't convey what i was trying to say because I was using the wrong terminology. I should probably retract it but ill leave it. See my reply above this response.
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In my airplane we have choice of running 20w-50 or straight 50w, obviously 50w would only work in the summer where 20-50w year round and I always pre-heat below 30f.
Anyhow, oil analysis shows 20% less metal running 20w-50 oil over the straight weight which I believe is directly attributed to cold start wear.
On aircraft the dipstick is marked with quart level and the straight weight takes about a full week for the quart that clings to the upper engine parts to drain back down to the sump.
The multi weight drains down in 3 days. So this proves though for long term storage that the multi weight, due to its thinner cold temp viscosity doesn’t protect against rust as well as straight weight.
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Anyhow, oil analysis shows 20% less metal running 20w-50 oil over the straight weight which I believe is directly attributed to cold start wear.
On aircraft the dipstick is marked with quart level and the straight weight takes about a full week for the quart that clings to the upper engine parts to drain back down to the sump.
The multi weight drains down in 3 days. So this proves though for long term storage that the multi weight, due to its thinner cold temp viscosity doesn’t protect against rust as well as straight weight.
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First... your airplane? You have me trumped.
Yes, this is one of the oft-cited issues in the multi-weight vs. single-weight debate, and has been renewed with dino vs. synthetic in recent years. Nothing protects for long-term storage, like good old-fashioned straight-weight oil. But if you’re driving daily, the fact that multiweight (and esp. synthetic) moves up those journals faster on a cold start, outweighs the storage benefit of straight weight.
Yep fly about 200 hours a year. Mooney 200hp retractable aircraft. The corvette of 4 seat airplanes. 170mph also 20mpg...
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semipro
Minister of Fire
This discussion is leading me to think the best practice for my ICEs with respect to oil is to simply:
- Run multi-grade synthetic oil
- Crank the engine up periodically and let it reach full operating temp to prevent crankcase corrosion though:
- Re-coating the engine internals
- Water removal from the oil
What you are suggesting is a doubke edged sword. Water removal from the oil will not occur until the oil has reached full operating temperature. You won't reach full operating temperature just letting the engine warm up and idle for 10 or 15 minutes. It's more likely you will cause more water intrusion than you will removal. Also, all the unnecessary cold starts will cause wear. I personally don't believe there is much concern for corossion internally if the equipment sits over winter and does not get started. The gains are not worth the added risks IMO.
I agree. Let’s not forget how the water intrusion happens, it’s when an engine cools, and contracting oil pulls outside air into the crankcase. More start/cool cycles just means more intrusion, not to mention the extra start-up wear.
Change the oil every six or twelve months, more often if you’re doing sufficient hours to justify, and don’t sweat it. I’m still running a 1973 Briggs on my walk-behind mower, and it sat outside on a covered porch for more than a decade of its life. If none of the screws strip or other parts break, it will surely outlive me, internal corrosion ain’t gonna take it out.
semipro
Minister of Fire
I'm not sure about you guys but the majority of the problems have with OPE are with fuel systems - far more than I've had with any lubrication related issues. Though I didn't say so above, I was thinking also of fuel issues. Yes, I've drained tanks and carb bowls, shut off fuel valves and let the engine run until it dies, and tried fuel stabilizers; all in various combinations with very limited success.
Anecdotally at least, it seems the engines that I run a few times in the winter are the ones that will start up and run well come spring.
Anecdotally at least, it seems the engines that I run a few times in the winter are the ones that will start up and run well come spring.
I have no issues with any of my 4 stroke OPE that run ethanol. I'm either lucky or will pay for later, idk. I have Toro Proline walk behind, a 3 Wheeler, push mower, snowblower and rototiller. I usually empty the tank and try run the gas out of the carb. The Proline gets Startron additive for ethanol because it has a fuel pump. The two stroke equipment get E-free 91 octane. No issues.
sportbikerider78
Minister of Fire
I use Mobil 1 5w30 for both cars..because thats what the manual says. There are frequent deals out there where you can get gallon jugs for $20 on amazon shipped.
I use NAPA full syntetic (its really Valvoline) in everything else. ATV's, log splitter, snowblower, dirtbikes, ect. It goes on sale for under $3 a quart sometimes. I use Rotella if I miss a NAPA sale.
Use Purolator filters or something better,,,not those cheap Frams. They are cardboard garbage.
Oil is the blood of the engine. Filters are the kidneys. You simply have to drain it to get the impurities out.
For motorcycles where you have shared oil between the transmission/gearbox and engine, the oil degrades very quickly because all of those molecules are getting torn up by the gears. A 10W40 becomes 8W30 more quickly than in a car.
I use NAPA full syntetic (its really Valvoline) in everything else. ATV's, log splitter, snowblower, dirtbikes, ect. It goes on sale for under $3 a quart sometimes. I use Rotella if I miss a NAPA sale.
Use Purolator filters or something better,,,not those cheap Frams. They are cardboard garbage.
Oil is the blood of the engine. Filters are the kidneys. You simply have to drain it to get the impurities out.
For motorcycles where you have shared oil between the transmission/gearbox and engine, the oil degrades very quickly because all of those molecules are getting torn up by the gears. A 10W40 becomes 8W30 more quickly than in a car.
This has suddenly become the case for me, in just the last few years, as well. I never had fuel issues before, but these newer fuels are really screwing with my older equipment. My 036 Pro is out again, surely a fuel related issue, and the second time in two years.
I’ve never understood the guy willing to spend $30 - $a50 on oil, while aiming to save $2 on a cheap filter. I figure it’s more just ignorance, than being cheap.
There’s a special SRT filter for my car, made by Wix. 67 pleats vs. Fram’s 32 pleats. Long-strand fiberglass vs. Fram’s cardboard. Silicone anti-drain back seal vs. Fram’s rubber. Coil spring valve vs. Fram’s stamped steel pan spring. No way in heck I’m dropping a Fram filter on anything I care about.
Fram on left, Wix on right.
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I second the Startron! I run it in everything. Goes right into the gas can and then into whatever equipment I’m running. Gas around here is all E10. I used to drain fuel tanks at the end of the season, but not since using the Startron, which has been about 10 years now.
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Camguard makes a great additive popular for aircraft but they make a line for small engines cars ect. It inhibits rust.
Lots of aircraft engines get ruined at the tune of $30-50k due to not running enough and when run the 20min flights kill the engines as the oil ends up with more moisture than when started. If your staring it to re-oil I’d say either only let it run for 5-10secs before water is introduced.
Remember water also comes from combustion.
It’s really hard to wear them out but easy to rust them to death. What happens isn’t the rings failing due to pitted cylinders as much as the cam shaft lobes fail and the engine starts making metal. The high pressure surface won’t tolerate pitted surfaces.
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Lots of aircraft engines get ruined at the tune of $30-50k due to not running enough and when run the 20min flights kill the engines as the oil ends up with more moisture than when started. If your staring it to re-oil I’d say either only let it run for 5-10secs before water is introduced.
Remember water also comes from combustion.
It’s really hard to wear them out but easy to rust them to death. What happens isn’t the rings failing due to pitted cylinders as much as the cam shaft lobes fail and the engine starts making metal. The high pressure surface won’t tolerate pitted surfaces.
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semipro
Minister of Fire
True in my case. By chance I was curious about this this last night and watched a bunch of oil filter disassembly videos on Youtube,
Its seems that Fram and Motorcraft are on the low end and Wix/Napa are on the upper end. Purolator, which I've used until recently, fell somewhere in the middle.
I plan to invest in Wix/Napa filters in the future.
Edit: Looks like I can get the Napa Gold for my Tacoma for about $5 apiece on Ebay by the case -- an apparent no-brainer.
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sportbikerider78
Minister of Fire
I had planned to spend today doing oil changes in about 10 machines, one being my car. However, I awoke to some un-forecast rain, so I'll be doing stovepipe mod's instead. Might get to the car this afternoon, but it's too muddy to get the tractor or mower out of the shed and into my clean barn shop, today.
On the oil, I sort of punted. I already had enough of all the dino weights I needed for this year's oil changes, except the 15W40 for the diesel, which I bought in dino again. That's a 31 year old machine, and I just didn't want to deal with the potential headaches of switching over a machine that's been running dino without issues for three decades.
Ironically, the only thing I don't have on the shelf is the SAE 30 I put in my push mower, which probably gets run less than an hour per year. There I'd prefer the SAE 30, for it's superior storage properties, but I guess I'll be loading that with the synth 5W30 (or maybe dino 10W30).
On the oil, I sort of punted. I already had enough of all the dino weights I needed for this year's oil changes, except the 15W40 for the diesel, which I bought in dino again. That's a 31 year old machine, and I just didn't want to deal with the potential headaches of switching over a machine that's been running dino without issues for three decades.
Ironically, the only thing I don't have on the shelf is the SAE 30 I put in my push mower, which probably gets run less than an hour per year. There I'd prefer the SAE 30, for it's superior storage properties, but I guess I'll be loading that with the synth 5W30 (or maybe dino 10W30).
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