Opinions: Englander 30 NCL? Possibly, A Decison....

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[quote author="TruePatriot" date="1177716712" Rather, decisions to kill product features seem to come from three areas: a) Accounting [/quote]

Hey.... it's not like we are ALL that bad - don't put us up (or down that low) as the lawyers.
 
Harley said:
Oh, well - goes with the territory

I was in a meeting one time with the production, sales and accounting managers. The sales guy said something about "the bean counters".

The accounting manager came straight up out of his chair and said "Yes, we are bean counters. And all we ask is that you &%*holes don't lose the @^$&ing beans before we get a chance to count'em!"
 
Good one BB. Gives new meaning to spilled the beans. We could use a whole lot more bean counters in Washington DC right now. Stick with it Harley.
 
Corie said:
Negative, customer service would be on the other end of the phone with him (read, Mike H.) More than likely I'd be out in the burn lab.

The corie special I and II both have tube secondary, no thermostatic control on the Corie I, still weighing options for the final design of the next stove.

We'll see. I might just save a whole bunch of these ideas and come out with an Englander that has:

Top Loading
Whorehouse Red
Thermostatic Air Control
Hidden Soapstone Panels
Remote Control Heat Adjustment

:)

One more item for the shopping list - It's one that has been keeping Englander from making it onto my list of candidate stoves - REAR EXIT options! I don't know why it seems like the cast and soapstone outfits can do the "flip collar" or other setups to allow a choice between top and rear exits, but it seems like the plate stove folks are stuck on top exits only.

Remember that some of your potential customers CAN'T USE a stove with a Top Exit!

Gooserider
 
Hi guys, just sow this post . Like to put my two cents in , i agree with having thermostatic controls in wood stoves , the bimetallic are grate i have ad several with them and they work grate . And for the new ever burn's, as far as i know none have thermostats not even vc . they are all manual controlled . As for the new englander wood stove it seems to be a good product for the money .
 
Brother Bart,

Re:
And I am just waiting ‘til it gets discovered that on the 30-NC the primary air control control controls secondary also. That ought to complicate the thermo controlled design just a tad.


Thank you for educating me about the linked drafts. But I'm not so sure that linked primary and secondaries are going to complicate things all that much, if Englander actually does a redesign incorporating thermostatic control.

Maybe initial tests of thermostatic control, with the primary and secondaries linked, will show that that design actually lends itself to thermostatic control, and that part of the stove can stay as designed. (I can see how more air in the first stage, creating more combustion gases, would lead to an increased demand for secondary air, to burn the increased amount of primary-stage smoke. Perhaps linked primary and secondary drafts will be found to make the most sense, under thermostatic control--who knows?)

If, on the other hand, the two air sources need to have separate controls, I don't see why the secondary couldn't have it's own control lever, or possibly, a second bimetallic spring to control it.

But the more I think about it, having them linked doesn't seem so bad.

I can't wait to see what develops at the Englander Stoveworks!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hey Harley,

Re:
[quote author="TruePatriot" date="1177716712" Rather, decisions to kill product features seem to come from three areas: a) Accounting

Hey.... it’s not like we are ALL that bad - don’t put us up (or down that low) as the lawyers.

You're probably right--as a former attorney, I have firsthand knowledge of the company I was forcing you to keep, in my assessment of the three "most-wanted" for killing product innovations. I apologize--I don't know you, so I shouldn't have assumed that you're as bad as the risk-averse "bean counters" that are responsible for (all too many) high performance cars not being offered with manual transmissions, nor the bloviating lawyers I've known, either.

I should have said "some" in front of "Bean Counters, Empty Suits and Gasbags."

Mea culpa, my brotha!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Cory

If you feel that you...
...can’t even handle the length of these posts.

You probably don't want to go to law school. (Not that I blame you, or would wish that on anyone--LOL).

But hey--I wonder if you've ever taken a crack at reading the actual statute (EPA, 1990) mandating that stoves not exceed certain maximum particulate emissions, in g/hr.? This law is, IMHO, largely responsible for this renaissance in wood heaters that we currently find ourselves in the midst of....

Here is a link to the statute: http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/policies/monitoring/caa/woodstoverule.pdf

Here is some text from that statute, below, which contains the "meat and potatoes" (by my quick reading) of the emissions limits, in g/hr.

(Kind of makes 'Ol Elk and me look like Masters of Haiku, by comparison, no? LOL)

§ 60.532 Standards for particulate matter.
Unless exempted under § 60.530, each
affected facility:
(a) [Reserved]
(b) Manufactured on or after July 1,
1990, or sold at retail on or after July 1,
1992, shall comply with the following
particulate matter emission limits as
determined by the test methods and
procedures in § 60.534:
(1) An affected facility equipped with
a catalytic combustor shall not discharge
into the atmosphere any gases
which contain particulate matter in
excess of a weighted average of 4.1 g/hr
(0.009 lb/hr). Particulate emissions during
any test run at any burn rate that
is required to be used in the weighted
average shall not exceed the value calculated
for ‘‘C’’ (rounded to 2 significant
figures) calculated using the following
equation:
(i) At burn rates less than or equal to
2.82 kg/hr (6.2 lb/hr),
C = K1BR + K2
Where:
BR = Burn rate in kg/hr (lb/hr) K1 = 3.55 g/kg (0.00355 lb/lb)
K2 = 4.98 g/hr (0.0.011 lb/hr)
(ii) At burn rates greater than 2.82 kg/hr (6.2 lb/hr), C = 15 g/hr (0.033 lb/hr).
(2) An affected facility not equipped with a catalytic combustor shall not discharge into the atmosphere any gases which contain particulate matter in excess of a weighted average of 7.5 g/
400
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think I would agree with you, Cory--more fun out in the "burn lab" than in the law library! (Hopefully, you won't have to read too much of the above, as a designer, or whatever niche you decide on).

All the best,

Peter
 
Gooserider said:
One more item for the shopping list - It's one that has been keeping Englander from making it onto my list of candidate stoves - REAR EXIT options! I don't know why it seems like the cast and soapstone outfits can do the "flip collar" or other setups to allow a choice between top and rear exits, but it seems like the plate stove folks are stuck on top exits only.

Remember that some of your potential customers CAN'T USE a stove with a Top Exit!

Gooserider

Actually I've thought of that before also. It seems there isn't a steel stove on the market anymore than can do both. Is there?
 
[quote author="TruePatriot" date="1178055368

Hey Harley,

Re:
[quote author="TruePatriot" date="1177716712" Rather, decisions to kill product features seem to come from three areas: a) Accounting

Hey.... it’s not like we are ALL that bad - don’t put us up (or down that low) as the lawyers.

You're probably right--as a former attorney, I have firsthand knowledge of the company I was forcing you to keep, in my assessment of the three "most-wanted" for killing product innovations. I apologize--I don't know you, so I shouldn't have assumed that you're as bad as the risk-averse "bean counters" that are responsible for (all too many) high performance cars not being offered with manual transmissions, nor the bloviating lawyers I've known, either.

I should have said "some" in front of "Bean Counters, Empty Suits and Gasbags."

Mea culpa, my brotha!All the best,

Peter[/quote]




Peter:
No apologies necessary. No offense was taken
 
Thanks, Harley--glad to hear it.

Peter
 
Corie said:
Gooserider said:
One more item for the shopping list - It's one that has been keeping Englander from making it onto my list of candidate stoves - REAR EXIT options! I don't know why it seems like the cast and soapstone outfits can do the "flip collar" or other setups to allow a choice between top and rear exits, but it seems like the plate stove folks are stuck on top exits only.

Remember that some of your potential customers CAN'T USE a stove with a Top Exit!

Gooserider

Actually I've thought of that before also. It seems there isn't a steel stove on the market anymore than can do both. Is there?

our 24 series freestanding catalytic units were top or rear flue steel units. the layout of the 13 and 30 series were not condusive to rear flue openings.

guess we'll have to work on that one wont we?
 
stoveguy2esw said:
Corie said:
Gooserider said:
One more item for the shopping list - It's one that has been keeping Englander from making it onto my list of candidate stoves - REAR EXIT options! I don't know why it seems like the cast and soapstone outfits can do the "flip collar" or other setups to allow a choice between top and rear exits, but it seems like the plate stove folks are stuck on top exits only.

Remember that some of your potential customers CAN'T USE a stove with a Top Exit!

Gooserider

Actually I've thought of that before also. It seems there isn't a steel stove on the market anymore than can do both. Is there?

our 24 series freestanding catalytic units were top or rear flue steel units. the layout of the 13 and 30 series were not condusive to rear flue openings.

guess we'll have to work on that one wont we?

I'll have to admit I haven't been real rigorous in my searches, but I think all the "selectable exit" stoves that I've noticed have been either cast or soapstone. The VC cast units are reversible, so are at least some of both the Hearthstones and Woodstocks. Some of the Jotul's are, those are cast. I forget whether the Quad IR is cast or plate. PE's are all top exit, plate. I thought all the Englanders were top exits, are the 24 series you mention still in production? I can't even think of any plate stoves that are even rear exit only... I don't know why this is so, but it is kind of limited.

One of the things that would be a nice feature we could add to the site might be to create a spreadsheet of all the different stoves (or at least the major variants) that did feature comparison for stuff like firebox size, material, load methods, exit type, etc. It would both help those of us with limitations create a list of stoves to consider, and those with sets of features they want discover brands that they didn't know about but would consider... Tom Oyen's store (The Chimney Sweep), has a nice start on one, but it only has the stoves he sells (non-cats) and doesn't list quite the same set of items that I would be interested in, but is the general idea.

Gooserider
 
actually goose, the 24 series was replaced by the 30 series, its no longer in production. i will DEFINATELY raise the rear flue option issue with R/D asap, to ensure that is in mind when they start to look at laying out another series of woodstoves. i agree it is somthing that should be made available if possible (corie, make sure you read this :) )
 
don't mean to dig up an old thread but my Earth Stove that was built in the later 70's has a butterfly air intake that has a bimetal coil and a themostat that has L M H on it and it opens and closes the air intake based on stove temp it is crude but works very well and I simply love it. so it they all did away with it there had to be problems with it
 
The new Blaze King and VC stoves still use a bimetallic thermostat. I had on the old Resolute and loved it too.
 
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