Our pediatrician asked if we burned wood ...

[jb6l6gc]

I had to put an outdooe air intake in my basement for the hotblast was having all sorts of problems until i did

 

[jatoxico]

I dont really understand what you mean by that.

I mean even when burned as efficiently as possible the older stoves put out more particulates which could make the difference between having respiratory issues and not for some people.

 

[becasunshine]

"A new study I saw on PBS 2 nights ago showed that Amish farm kids have almost no allergies at all. About 1/100th of the normal! Their environments were clean but not overly sanitized. The theory is that dust and dirt exposure at an early age substantially reduced allergies in children. It seems counter intuitive but the stats are very clear. Kids suffer from far more allergies when raised in an overly clean environment. You'll find a wood stove in the Amish farm homes too."

This. When we were last in Amish country I quietly giggled to myself about this very thing. It was the first time in *years* that I'd seen kids *with actual dirt on them.* Not every kid and not in every setting, but there were kids who were obviously outside playing and helping on the farm, and OH NOES, THEIR CLOTHES WERE DIRTY. The kids themselves seemed happy enough.

I, too, have run across references to kids exposed to dirt and dust developing better immune responses, both more efficient and less randomly sensitive. ??? I guess time and further research will tell.

 

[jb6l6gc]

All im saying is i have 2 units neither have epa reburn or cats and because my fires are robust and get sufficient air i am able to burn cleanly on both units and have minimul to average cresote buildup. Only time mine are smokey are briefly after reloads. I dont see how and older stove could be that smokey consistently unless it was not being operated very well. Just my 2 cents take it for what its worth ...I'll shut up now

 

[begreen]

I was at the hardware store here in Maryland and they had brand new
non EPA compliant stoves for sale

Right. They can sell off existing inventory until Dec. 31, 2015.

 

[jb6l6gc]

Agreed becasunshine i think people have become very soft these days. Hell since ive moved to the country ive met my friend/neighbours kids and these kids are awsome they see work as play truly awsome to witness.

 

[mikebinthesky]

I know its not the point of this thread but i think my stove has been good for my kids.We worked together all summer-splitting and stacking,we all gather a little closer next to the stove now,talk a bit more and watch less TV Family

 

[jatoxico]

All im saying is i have 2 units neither have epa reburn or cats and because my fires are robust and get sufficient air i am able to burn cleanly on both units and have minimul to average cresote buildup. Only time mine are smokey are briefly after reloads. I dont see how and older stove could be that smokey consistently unless it was not being operated very well. Just my 2 cents take it for what its worth ...I'll shut up now

And you're doing the right thing so good on ya. And you can burn incorrectly in an EPA stove and not achieve the efficiency and particulate reductions they are capable which is a whole 'nother conversation regarding where the focus of the EPA should be and the new standards.

But I have to say the fact that you do not see visible smoke is not evidence that you are not putting out the particulates that are of primary concern or burning as clean as a new stove could, Pre EPA stoves are just not capable of reducing those particulates as well as the new stoves do.

So to try to keep this thread somewhat on track, respiratory issues from smoke are real, EPA stoves significantly reduce the health risks associated with wood burning but a small segment of the population, especially children may still be affected even if everything is done correctly.

 

[jharkin]

Problem is that they are not the odd ones in some places, they are the norm for many. You can drive around rural WA state and run across these smoke dragons chugging out clouds of smoke pretty easily on a winter day. Look at some big stove exchange programs and they take them in by the hundreds in one area alone. And this is in a state that put in strict regulations on wood stove emissions from the get go a few decades ago.

This still is not an uncommon site in rural WA. Two or 3 stoves burning like this can fill up a cold valley with smoke. Then all residents suffer.
View attachment 164353

Here in mass they are everywhere too. Even if they have an EPA stove most folk with woodpiles have smoke belching from smouldering wet wood. Clean burners are the exception unfortunately.

Difference here is we don't get so many of those inversions so the smoke doesn't linger.

 

[begreen]

Correct, an EPA stove can smoke a lot too with damp fuel.

Cold air tends to get trapped in valleys and between mountain ranges. When I lived in CT we had smoke trapped in valleys, sometimes badly. There were times when you could drive down Rt. 7 in the Housatonic River valley and it looked like dense fog, but it was smoke.

 

[edyit]

we have some people here that i know who just started cutting this years wood last month cause "it burns longer this way". on a damp cold day like today it makes certain parts of town look like its in a fog. maybe the pediatrician should ask does anyone around you burn wood.

 

[begreen]

Saw that in rural Europe too. The smart folks had dry wood stacked on the property. The fools were burning fresh cut wood and smoking up the valley. These folks have been burning wood for heat for centuries and still haven't learned how to burn cleanly.

 

[timfromohio]

Wow, 4 pages of thread drift!

To me the point of the post was not the risks associated with compromising indoor air quality, it was feeling that pediatricians are overstepping bounds (it appears they are doing so as prompted by the government) of their authority and intruding on that of the parents. I'd appreciate a friendly, "if you heat with wood here's some information to consider" handout but don't like the "looks" that one gets for asking questions about vaccines, fluoride in municipal water, or the really nasty looks one gets for not answering the questions altogether. Last visit we went home with a nice handout telling us not to engage in certain risky behaviors like riding ATV's. It happens that we don't have an ATV (I the mean dad that makes his kids pedal ...), but if you want one for your kid that's your deal. If we want to juggle flaming chainsaws at my house that's what we'll do and it's our business. We were also granted a marvelous "child appears to interact well with mother" rating after being observed for under a minute. I was upset we didn't get a trophy or at least a sticker.

 

[BKVP]

Only until December 31, 2015

I was at the hardware store here in Maryland and they had brand new
non EPA compliant stoves for sale

 

[branchburner]

I dont see how an epa vs. Non epa stove would affect the indoor air quality. I would think bad draft/chimney setup and carelessness on reloading causing smoke spillage and things of that nature would be legitimate factors.

I think as a rule, you are more likely to see bad draft/chimney setup -- not to mention burning of green wood -- with older non-EPA stoves. If for no other reason than newer EPA stoves are less tolerant of poor draft and poor wood, but also the entire notion of two-year-seasoned wood and 6" ss liners and secondary combustion (= clean burning) is foreign to most people with airtight stoves from the 70s or older.

Those notions were foreign to me until several years ago. My father, my father-in-law and myself all burned unseasoned wood in older. less-efficient (dirtier) stoves using oversized/uninsulated (cold) flues. We produced lots of particulate and lots of creosote. Only one of us changed his ways, and that was simply by the luck of stumbling across this site.

 

[branchburner]

They will all die in time!

But the older, dirtier stoves may be reborn by home stove-builders. As the EPA tightens regs, new stoves will become more expensive. As pre-EPA stoves die out in time, there is nothing to stop home welders from making (and selling) their own stoves from barrels or plate steel or what have you. Certainly the law won't stop them, any more than it stopped drinking, brewing and distilling during Prohibition.

 

[Ashful]

I dont see how an epa vs. Non epa stove would affect the indoor air quality.

Where exactly do you think your indoor air came from?

30 years ago, you could smell the kids who owned wood stoves from across the classroom. They always smelled like a campfire. Today... not so much.

 

[bwells794]

Wow, 4 pages of thread drift!

To me the point of the post was not the risks associated with compromising indoor air quality, it was feeling that pediatricians are overstepping bounds (it appears they are doing so as prompted by the government) of their authority and intruding on that of the parents. I'd appreciate a friendly, "if you heat with wood here's some information to consider" handout but don't like the "looks" that one gets for asking questions about vaccines, fluoride in municipal water, or the really nasty looks one gets for not answering the questions altogether. Last visit we went home with a nice handout telling us not to engage in certain risky behaviors like riding ATV's. It happens that we don't have an ATV (I the mean dad that makes his kids pedal ...), but if you want one for your kid that's your deal. If we want to juggle flaming chainsaws at my house that's what we'll do and it's our business. We were also granted a marvelous "child appears to interact well with mother" rating after being observed for under a minute. I was upset we didn't get a trophy or at least a sticker.

I completely agree. Offer literature on whatever your concern is and put the issue to rest. As a doctor, that's all you can do. The ultimate decision is with the patient/parent/legal guardian. I was actually listening to something similar to this just this morning on the radio where children in schools are being subjected to surveys in class (where answers can't be influenced by parents) asking questions ranging from "have you ever done this drug?" to "do your parents own guns?" to "are you sexually active?". It's mind blowing. Several teachers actually called in and verified that they had to administer questionnaires just like this in their classrooms. I think the most disturbing part is how manipulative they are and that they prey on the naiveté of children because they KNOW they're invading the privacy of families and that the parents would never divulge answers to the types of questions they ask.

TL;DR: unless you're a private investigator or law enforcement officer, it's none of your business. Teach, heal, do whatever it is you are supposed to do and don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong.

 

[jb6l6gc]

But the older, dirtier stoves may be reborn by home stove-builders. As the EPA tightens regs, new stoves will become more expensive. As pre-EPA stoves die out in time, there is nothing to stop home welders from making (and selling) their own stoves from barrels or plate steel or what have you. Certainly the law won't stop them, any more than it stopped drinking, brewing and distilling during Prohibition.

In canada for insurance purposes you would not be covered if you were to use one of these such stoves. They must have a UL listing and be certified by a WETT technician...

 

[jharkin]

In canada for insurance purposes you would not be covered if you were to use one of these such stoves. They must have a UL listing and be certified by a WETT technician...

I bet most US insurance companies wouldn't cover you either. You wont be able to get a building permit and pass inspection for a non listed stove.

That doesn't stop a lot of rednecks from putting them in anyway and just taking the risk.

 

[Huntindog1]

"A new study I saw on PBS 2 nights ago showed that Amish farm kids have almost no allergies at all. About 1/100th of the normal! Their environments were clean but not overly sanitized. The theory is that dust and dirt exposure at an early age substantially reduced allergies in children. It seems counter intuitive but the stats are very clear. Kids suffer from far more allergies when raised in an overly clean environment. You'll find a wood stove in the Amish farm homes too."

This. When we were last in Amish country I quietly giggled to myself about this very thing. It was the first time in *years* that I'd seen kids *with actual dirt on them.* Not every kid and not in every setting, but there were kids who were obviously outside playing and helping on the farm, and OH NOES, THEIR CLOTHES WERE DIRTY. The kids themselves seemed happy enough.

I, too, have run across references to kids exposed to dirt and dust developing better immune responses, both more efficient and less randomly sensitive. ??? I guess time and further research will tell.

Your right exposure to dirt is a good thing. Allergies is just a name for over reaction of the immune system. Allergist test you for what your allergic to and then gives you an injection weekly to expose your body to that irritant. I am sure its a weak form but it gradually lets your immune system adjust to the irritant. Another issue is America's industrialized food chain that has american kids exposed to way to much omega 6 fatty acids from all the grain fed meats. Omega 3's is an import balancing act for the system. As Omega 6's shift the body to more prone to inflammation and allergies. Also a big turning point in heart health was when the doctors finally figured out that heart disease was more of a inflammatory issue. As they notice people who were on arthritis meds had less heart disease. Which Arthritis is another inflammatory condition. The meds were not only reducing the inflammation of the joints but also of the heart thus reducing heart disease. Everyone could do them some good getting on daily omega 3 fish oil that is distilled too take out the fish smell and burp.

 

[Andy S.]

This site isn't the wood version of the NRA.

I beg to differ. I've learned a great deal about the respective areas of expertise from both. On the off chance the comment was intended as a pejorative on the dangers of rigid, dogmatic thinking, I'd suggest "this isn't the wood version of Planned Parenthood" would be a better fit.

 

[branchburner]

I beg to differ. I've learned a great deal about the respective areas of expertise from both. On the off chance the comment was intended as a pejorative on the dangers of rigid, dogmatic thinking, I'd suggest "this isn't the wood version of Planned Parenthood" would be a better fit.

I think the point is, the primary function of the NRA is no longer simply education. It is a political and lobbying organization first and foremost. Education, safety and training is secondary.

 

[Andy S.]

I think the point is, the primary function of the NRA is no longer simply education. It is a political and lobbying organization first and foremost. Education, safety and training is secondary.

I doubt that is the point. If it is the point it would have been more accurate to properly identify it as NRA-ILA. Here is some quick info on NRA: http://mic.com/articles/23929/10-surprising-facts-about-the-nra-that-you-never-hear

Like Hearth.com, it is privately-held, educates on a wide range of issues specific to its general subject and is the go-to source for *education, safety and training* and enjoys wide and membership. Taken together that's why anyone intending a negative comparison to this great site would do better with what I suggested earlier.

 

[Grisu]

Maybe we can stop talking about other websites/institutions and concentrate on the topic of this thread which is to determine if woodburning is a health hazard for children? There are always PMs if you feel the need to discuss something else.