P61A - Help needed with Operation and Settings

[Bombero]

Hey folks - I feel like I've read every post in here twice, and I'm still having more questions than answers. Here is what I have:

1950's Split Ranch in southern Connecticut - 1700 +/- sq ft.
- 3 Beds and 1 bath over garage, 5 stairs go strtaight down to the livingroom
- kitchen, diningroom, livingroom and 1/2 bath main level, Living and dining room are open floor plan, with 3 stairs going down to the playroom
- kids playroom off of diningroom/livingroom

All ceilings are 8' except for the playroom - they are almost 9'

Pretty typical layout for this region

New windows and doors, attic has a fresh layer of insulation.
Unfinished/Uninsulated block foundation basement under half the split, garage under other half - also uninsulated.

Harman P61A installed in playroom in corner - angled directly toward living/diningroom - regular cleanings - pot scraped daily

3" pipe vented thru wall with a thimble. From stove - 1' straight, 90* to vertical, 90* to horizontal, 2' piece thru the thimble and capped.

No external fresh air intake

I use the room sensing probe, it is 3' away from the stove, 1' up the wall.

Stove appears to be in normal running condition - it was bought new, this is the 2nd season.

Stove settings:
Feedrate 4
Room Temp - in the middle
Temp Dial - 75*
Auto ignition

Pellets - 2 bags/day

Valfei Ambiance Premium Wood Pellets

My issues are these -

First, is it normal/acceptable for a P61A to be using 2 bags/day of pellets?

Am I supposed to have short - 6" or 8" "angry" air forced flames, or more full height "lazy" air forced flames?

I am having problems getting the heat up to the bedroom level. It heats the playroom fine, and the livingroom level well - 68* to 70* but I can't seem to get the heat up to the bedrooms - we average about 63-65*. It kind of amazes me that I can't get the body of heat to rise - you feel a distinct temp change when going up/down the stairs from the livingroom to the bedrooms.

I feel like I have to turn the bedroom heat zone on, to take the edge off for the kids (oh yeah - they're 3 and 5) But I'd rather not do that (turn the oil on, that is)

As far as ash - I end up getting clinkers at the sides of the burn area, and I end up scraping them out daily, and this helps with the flame quality.

Any info would be greatly appreciated, and if more answers are needed, please ask. If it's all babble, I apologise. Thanks in advance.

 

[Bombero]

Here's an update from my retailer:

Set the stove as follows, and your consumption will be lower, while having steady heat:

Feedrate - 5
STOVE Temp - Highest
Temp Setting - 2 1/2

Any comments?

 

[HarryBack]

hmmmmm
Interesting
I have a 2000 square foot home, two floors, and am heating it with my p61. I do see a difference between floors of roughly 8-10 degrees, the upstairs being cooler than down. My stove is in the living room.
I think you'd be better served bringing in outside air myself...easy to do as well....cant hurt and would take one variable out of the equation.
Two bags a day seems a bit extreme in the weather we have been having...Im in southern MA. Im burning around 1.25 bags/day right now....my settings are:
feed rate:3.5
room temp, 73
set midway between low and high

I dont think our settings are that different, myself.

You should have "angry" flames, not lazy ones. Lazy ones indicate a problem with air or cleaning.

1. Try a new pellet
2. Take the "cap" off and use a 45 degree bend instead
3. try my settings above
4. make sure your pipe is clean (how old is the unit?)
5. bring in outside air
6. move the room sensing probe around a bit


Feedrate, 3-1/2 to 4 sounds better to me, stove mode, id go midway, but would suggest that room temp is the way to go, rather than stove temp...stove temp only monitors exhaust gas temp, irregardless of room temp.

 

[GVA]

Clean? how often?
Checked out the fines under the burnpot?... The fresh air intake? The distribution blower fins (do you have pets)
Harry is correct with the settings here. As are you. The dealer may be trying to brush you off a bit, those suggested settings may blow you out of that room with heat.

do you turn the stove down or off during the day- it's hard to heat an area as large as yours with a zone heater this way.
Ambiance pellets......Tried them my first year thought everything was normal with heat output I ran a different pellet for one ton........Wow what a difference I never went back to ambiance. I still experiment with different pellets but New Englands seem very good this year at least the Canadian mix I got last week.
so have you tried a diferent pellet
here's a link for your stove cleaning at least every ton...
http://www.harmanstoves.com/maintenance/p38&p61cleaninginstructions.pdf

I have a friend at work who's son just bought the P-68 and said he doesn't have to do anything other than dump pellets in........ :bug:
I told him he was misinformed.... Many people think that they are like heating with oil and you just make sure the tank is full...

Lazy flame is either a drafting problem or a dirty stove.....
Does your flame ever die down low into the burnpot or does it allways stay high? If it dies down to the burnpot once in a while than the room sensor is being satisfied and lowers the feed rate internally, so you may have to help move the heat out of that room a little bit.

let us know?

 

[GVA]

This is a quick post of the flame patterns you should expect to see..

first pic is full on high fire after pellets are feeding after say a door to outside was opened and the room temp dropped.
second is as the temp nears room temp setting.
third is low fire or maintenance burn (that is room temp is satisfied and stove is maintaining enough fire so as not to require the ignitor again)
actually the third is a little bit more than maintenance burn but it's close enough.
I've watched it cycle like this for hours tonite and it's about 25* outside right now.
The flame at all stages Is never lazy
Don't know about the quality of photos I used my phone for the pictures :red:

 

[Bombero]

Wow - That was quick - Thanks for the help - I'll try to answer some of the questions you've followed up with, and I'm sure I'm gonna have a couple more questions myself.

The unit is 2 years old, most of the pipe is new this season, some is from last season, but cleaned before install.
Last year I burned new England, and I think they burned better, but since this is a new location for the stove, it's hard to compare the performance vs. the Valfei Ambience pellets.

3 Questions for you Harry -

1. What's the advantage to an elbow vs. the end cap that I have - The one I have looks like a chrome dryer vent - not the flat louvered kind, but the kind that angles out away from the house. Not sure if I made myself clear on that....?

2. What's the advantage of having the air intake coming from outside? I read a bit hear and otherplaces, and it seemed to me like people had problems when they did this?

3. The glass gets some ash staining on the sides, about 2 inches wided, almost the full height of the glass - I clean it about once a week - this is normal, right? I left it in the pics so you can see.

GVA -

I clean the stove as per the manual every ton. I've yet to burn a full ton so I haven't done a "full" cleaning, but I scrape the pot daily. Do you suggest otherwise, or is this ok? I see that I have ash on some of the ledges and on top of the frie bricks - this is ok - no? If you can tell on my pictures the ash infront of the fire - is this appropriate? Thanks.

When you say fines under the burnpot - you mean where the igniter is - right? I do that about once a week to once every 10 days.

We have no pets. I leave the stove on 24/7. We were turning it down during the day, but we left it on the retailers settings since yesterday (12/6) at noon - to get an idea on the pellet usage and heat.

The retailer settings - Feed 5, Stove Temp High, Temp Dial 2 1/2 Looks like I used a little more than 1 bag in 18 hours. It's an improvement.

The flame rises and falls basically as pellets are fed. Once the feed stops, the flame goes down, and it is not lazy, atleast to me.

I took some pics - I'll try to attach them below.

This is the lazy flame, this doesn't always happen - no doors were opened or anything to cause this...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/FFNick40/100_4184.jpg

This is what I normally see

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/FFNick40/100_4186.jpg

Is this considered a "dirty" stove? Should I clean all that off?

http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/FFNick40/100_4185.jpg

Thanks for the help and info.

I think I should change back to the Room Temp setting, from what you all are saying - this is the way to go, right?

 

[Bombero]

Oh yeah, and 1 more thing I just noticed. I had a "lazy" flame, and by chance, I opened the hopper to see my pellet level thinking I was getting empty, and the flame suddenly got nice and angry once the hopper door was opened. I was not low on pellets at all. I checked the air intake in the back, and it appears to be working properly - it opens up, fine, and hits something metal behind it when it is about 1/2 way open. I'm assuming this is normal?

 

[GVA]

Ok first things first here Are you saying that the stove is now in a different location and the piping was changed? Is the piping longer more 90* elbows perhaps?
Was the draft checked after this change?
I also see you have replaced windows and insulated more.........Did it burn better last year (I assuming that it did) your house may be a bit tighter and requires outside air. A simple test would be while the stove is running and the flames look lazy open a window nearby (not wide open cause its cold outside ;-) ) Did the flames react?
As far as the dryer type damper on the end of the pipe I believe Harry suggests changing this because it adds restriction and affects draft I'll let him field that subject though.
The picture of the normal run flame you have may not be enough to heat up the heat exchanger Does your blower kick down low at all?...If it does your stove is sensing that the room is at temp.
You burned less pellets in stove temp but were the temps of the rooms any different?
The lazy flame hmmm. how to describe is tough..... usually it leans towards the glass or you can crack the door open to the stove and they should kind of drop down and roll forward and to the sides more.
The glass it will get dirty and is normal.
I probably missed some questions here but I'm sure Harry or others will be back soon.

 

[GVA]

Normal.... though not recommended to keep that hopper open hh:

 

[Kenny1]

my 61a will do the same thing when i open the hopper lid. flame actually looks better when the door is open. more like a smooth torch like flame but when i close the hopper they die down a little and flicker more. but they all do that, at least the ones i have checked at dealers and such. my dad has the harman insert and my brother the p68 ,same thing so i figure it is normal. i have no problem with my 61 except an annoying buzzing that happens when it has been cranking for an hour or so. think i have it figured out though, now just fixing it before i tip it over and throw it out. >:-(

Ditto on the hopper lid thing. The flames on my P61A also change a bit when the hopper lid is open.

Bombero, if it makes you feel any better, I'm currently going thru 1.5 to 1.75 bags a day for our 1400 sq ft house, but I'm further north of you (in Canada). Good luck figuring this out.

Ron, out of curiosity, what is buzzing on your stove?

Keep warm

Kenny

 

[Bombero]

Ok first things first here Are you saying that the stove is now in a different location and the piping was changed? Is the piping longer more 90* elbows perhaps?

Last year the stove was in my basement - I moved it up before this heating season. The run is shorter, same # of 90's - 2.

Was the draft checked after this change?

Nope. I think you're probably gonna yell at me now, right? =)

I also see you have replaced windows and insulated more.........Did it burn better last year (I assuming that it did)

It ate pellets last year, too. Atleast 1.5 bags, if not 2/day.

your house may be a bit tighter and requires outside air. A simple test would be while the stove is running and the flames look lazy open a window nearby (not wide open cause its cold outside ;-) ) Did the flames react?

My house is pretty tight, I guess- As tight as a 1950's ranch can be. New windows and doors, insulation,... I tried the open window thing, right by the stove, and it didn't change the flame from what I could tell, so I'm really wondering if the outside air is gonna matter - also - from what I can tell, the flapper inside the air intake is open as far as it can go.

As far as the dryer type damper on the end of the pipe I believe Harry suggests changing this because it adds restriction and affects draft I'll let him field that subject though.

If I have time tomorrow, I'll take the cap off, and see if it makes a difference.

The picture of the normal run flame you have may not be enough to heat up the heat exchanger Does your blower kick down low at all?...If it does your stove is sensing that the room is at temp.
You burned less pellets in stove temp but were the temps of the rooms any different?

The fan seems to run at a constant high rate in Stove Temp - in Room Temp it definitely cycled. The temps are pretty close from the previous Room Temp settings to the "new" Stove Temp settings

I seem to be using 1 bag in 24 hours, but it was pretty mild today. If I can maintain that consumption, I'll be satisfied, but I'd like to nail down that flame issue.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[HarryBack]

To end cap or not to end cap? Well, an end cap looks good, and gets more prfit for the stove company, and somewhat camouflages the opening from birds. What is also does is slightly impede airflow and slow down the exhaust gas enough so that you are much more likely to get deposits on your siding. If you do go this route, cover the end when you are done with bruning...feeps the birds out.

Exterior air is a big issue here, moreso with a wood or coal stove than a pellet stove. If the house is tight, or has been made tight, it would give a more unrestricted supply of air to the stove.

As for glass, some deposits on the glass is normal. We find certain brands of pellets leave more depostis than others. I wont name good vs bad brands here, but rest assured, one major factor determining the amount of deposits on the glass is the type of pellet.

As for your pictures, the fire seems normal, as does the stuff on the glass.

I still dont get the Stove Temp running mode suggestion. You paid a fair chunk of change for that stove to light itself and run itself based on the room temperature...it should be able to do so. Messing with settings is ok.....all stove dont use the same settings, but when you are radically changing the settings, somethings odd.

Noones gonna yell at you for not having draft readings. I cannot stress enough the import of them as a diagnostic tool. If I know your original, new-installation settings, in a minute I can diagnose quite a bit....mostly the draft number will indicate how dirty the unit is, but also, coupled with a reading from the DDM, it can tell a technician if probes are reading right or at all, if a motor is not getting enough juice, if a motor isnt turning at all, etc.....all without having to take anything off the stove! I understand not many folks own a magnahelic, but if the dealer did the install, I dont understand the reason for not taking one, other than laziness.

The flame changes when the hopper is open? Yep....you are modifying the air flow in the stove by opening it, thusly the flame changes. Dont run the stove with the lid left open, and dont run the stove with a compromised gasket.

Bon Chance!

 

[HarryBack]

my 61a will do the same thing when i open the hopper lid. flame actually looks better when the door is open. more like a smooth torch like flame but when i close the hopper they die down a little and flicker more. but they all do that, at least the ones i have checked at dealers and such. my dad has the harman insert and my brother the p68 ,same thing so i figure it is normal. i have no problem with my 61 except an annoying buzzing that happens when it has been cranking for an hour or so. think i have it figured out though, now just fixing it before i tip it over and throw it out. >:-(

A buzzing? When it warms up? Sounds like a good time to call the dealer, if its under warrantee still. If its not under warrantee, its time to figure out what the buzzing is, since you might be looking for a new geardrive or blower soon. Also could be something simple like a errant wire touching the feed motor fan. Could be some crap in the distribution fan. Could be a loose combustion fan cover (common- black plastic grating over the back end of the fan). Could be a loose heat shield. Could be your scraper sitting on a hearth board being vibrated (yup- seen this). I guess what im hinting at, is look at it, figure out what the buzzing is yourself, or call the dealer. Could be something simple, maybe not. Could be a warrantee issue, which would cost you nothing, or maybe not. Its quite hard to diagnose things by a typed post.

 

[TedNH]

Im getting the same thing with my XXV.
I burn energex premiums from Canada.
I get major carbon build up in the burn pot that I could litteraly scrape 2x a day and still not be ahead of it.
Im doing a good clean out once a week. And by good I mean, vac out the burnpot, inside of the stove, dump the ash, pull the ignitor cover suck it clean, etc etc.
Soon as Im done cleaning the stove and it fires back up for the first time I get real nice heat, blowtorch like flame. Over night the flames will change to being tall and kinda lazy. And I dont "think" the heat off the stove is as good as it is when its freshly cleaned.
Perhaps its just the nature of the beast.

 

[Bombero]

Thanks for all the input, your shared knowledge is much appreciated. I have to work a 24, and then I'm going to be running around this weekend a bit, so next week I'm going to take your advice Harry and change over to Room Temp mode. I'll keep ya posted.

Here's a pic of the fire I was dealing with last nite....