Paralysis by analysis - Looking for first stove

[Elfmaze]

Well I wiil be the stick in the mud(except for maybe tj) big old house,not sealed well,pellet stove is poor choice.Lump coal stove(for cheap).Eastern PA-natural gas?got about a good 7 cheap years left.2000 sq ft not that big,but you did not provide enough info,so if you go pellet go big.Something I have(and still) use on people out here is-go and buy 4 milkhouse electric heaters(40.000 watts is very close to 40,000 btu's),put all them in the same room,next to one another,live through a winter and see if you will be happy with this.most pellet stoves are a space heater/only

I would love a coal stove but we do not have a fireplace or chimney. Installing a full external class a chimney on the rental house is going to be not worth it(30-40 ft up would have to go) . I have heard there are a few coal stokers that can be direct vented and i'm going to the dealer to talk about them after work today, But the power vent unit I hear is pricey and one guy told me its still not designed for coal.

Natural gas would be great, but no lines run past me. We do have the oil forced hot water radiators, so we are not going to be cold. just trying to defer the cost while being a bit more comfort. Its hard to run the space heater test right now since its not cold... But I have a few 1500(~5000BTU) watt oil radiators that seem to handle a room each easily.

I know coal stoves are powerhouse furnaces, And I even have a Vermont castings cast iron wood / coal stove. I just can't figure out how to use it.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Bob Bare got it right. You shouldn't spend a lot on a stove for a rental house (assuming you're allowed to) even if you are going to move the stove to another place. What happens if the next one is a rental too. You're lucky as heck that the renter is allowing you to install a stove and to be lucky twice in a row will be a miracle. Spending $4500 for a Harman, while nice, means you're going to probably have to sell it when you move and you'll be lucky to get half that on the used market. So for what you'd lose on a Harman, you could have bought an Englander brand (big one) and thrown it away when you move. (only kidding there but trying to make a point). Also if you follow this forum throughout the winter, you'll see as many 'Help me with my Harman' posts as with any other brand so all is not gold. The Englanders have very good support right here on the forum plus you can buy refurbished ones with new stove warranty from www.amfmenergy.com for a great price that includes shipping.
Of course, that assumes that a coal stove is out of the equation. You might need that 90,000 btu's this winter though with the old house! Don't just ask a dealer who sells mostly pellet stove about the virtues of a coal stove! Check out my links and find dealers that sell those and know what they are talking about. There's a lot of BS out there! Any dealer that sells pellet stoves in Pa. is doing their customers a disservice by feeding them crap about coal. IMHO OF COURSE.

 

[Mr. Spock]

I have found many times that to be the case "get what you pay for" But could you expand on what it does better? less breakdowns, cheaper repairs, better heat control, safety? If I can justify the extra cost i'm there... But usually when buying things I look at the steel and they are all made of decent materials. the quad cb1200 has a bit more refinement to the Summers heat. But I can't really see much operational difference between the advance and the CB1200. Granted i've never seen them run side by side.

I think Harman may have an edge in maintenance, repairs and use . What follows is my opinion from my experience with a Harman, I do not have direct experience with other models of pellet stove. Only what I read and learned from other pellets stove owners which is by no means extensive. Others may sound in on this subject with there pellet stove experiences and I hope they do!

From the use perspective it's pretty much hands off - set the temp and forget about it. It's so easy my better half can use it - she just sets the temp dial and walks away. One less thing I have to take care of. It does have some other neat features like a stove temp mode which can allow the stove to run in heat radiation mode which I find useful when the house is warm but you want to enjoy a fire.

On the maintenance side of things there is not much to do on a daily basis. The bottom feed burn pot design pushes clinkers and ash into the ash pan so aside from an occasionally scraping of the burn pot, which can be done without shutting down the stove, there is not much else to do. With high quality fuel I can ignore the burn pot for quite a few days.
How often the the burn pot needs a good scrape and how often the ash pan fills up will depend on the quality of the pellets burned. My XXV has a tiny ash pan compared to other Harman models but it will still take a couple of weeks to fill burning a good fuel (dead of winter). On the subject of fuel quality I have found the Harman will burn pretty much anything I put in the hopper. It just doesn't care. Something to think about when you look at pellet prices in your area.

I am going into my third full season and have yet to make any repairs. Folks I know who have Harman's find them reliable and highly recommend them. With that said I find the design is easy to work on. All major yearly maintenance points are easy to get at and replacing the common fail items will be super easy if your handy. Although I heard the igniter can be a challenge( I should know first hand since they last about 3 seasons on average).

So in summary, If your looking for something that is easy to use, requires very little daily attention, and will chow down on just about any pellet you care to put in the hopper then additional upfront cost may be worthwhile to you.

I look forward to hearing other member experiences.

 

[tjnamtiw]

I have nothing against Harman, just to set the record straight.. They make a very nice, sophisticated stove. I love the looks of the XXV. It's just in the OP's position, it seems that it would be 'overkill' in a very tenuous situation.

 

[Mr. Spock]

I have nothing against Harman, just to set the record straight.. They make a very nice, sophisticated stove. I love the looks of the XXV. It's just in the OP's position, it seems that it would be 'overkill' in a very tenuous situation.

You had posted while I was writing that. I agree there is an overkill factor here and may not have responded if I saw your post. I was just trying to provide what he was asking for.

 

[Elfmaze]

I did go see the Keystoker stoves. Sounds like they are made not too far from me. 3500 for the bay window model I was all set! 75,000 btus's coal fired, awesome! Then she quoted me $255/ ton for coal picked up at the yard!?!?!?!? is coal really up 30% from last year? pending stove efficiency that catching up with pellet pricing!

 

[tjnamtiw]

Tamaqua breakers has the best price per my brother in law. Was that loose coal or bagged? Even at a price of $225, don't forget that the coal has more btu's per pound than pellets do. Here's a really good cost comparison website FYI. You'll see that you'll still be well ahead and/or warmer.
http://www.buildinggreen.com/calc/fuel_cost.cfm Don't forget to change the efficiency for the coal stove to at least 80%.

http://nepacrossroads.com/about29702.html At the bottom of that page is an ad for Tamaqua coal for $160 a ton for any size.

 

[Elfmaze]

haha, funny that ad has been popping up on my internet pages but i never read it. 160 a ton would be golden if I can get them to sell three ton to me. That $255 was picked up from a pile in the coal yard, i even get to shovel it myself( i'm hoping there is a bobcat sitting somewhere)

 

[tjnamtiw]

They'd be happy to sell you 3 tons, I'm sure. They were making an easy buck selling you $160 coal for $225! Not sure how they do it now but I used to drive my truck under a silo and they'd pull a lever and fill it in a second! One time I was SLIGHTLY overweight when the smart-arse had some fun - 3600 lbs in a Ford F100.......
I can't picture my brother in law shoveling so they must have a Bobcat or backhoe. Give them a call. Plug that $160 into that comparison page with 80% and you get a million btu's for about $8. That's why I continue to be amazed at posts on here.

 

[Elfmaze]

I'm going to go look at the Channing 3 and kast console again tomorrow. I am a bit nervous after hearing stories of hopper fires with the direct vent units.... My guess is the first mention of a hopper fire and my girl is kicking it out of the house. Also how loud are these stoves compared to a classic bay 1200. Things I need to check on.

I did find three 275 gallon water containers for free that can be used for coal hoppers though!

 

[tjnamtiw]

You'll hear all about hopper fires on here too but what %? With a direct vent, if it stops, the feed stops on a stoker plus the hopper is sealed at the top IIRC, which prevents a fire ever getting into the hopper. No oxygen-no fire. Plus Alaska has a safety heat sensor on the hopper that shuts off the combustion blower. Gravity fed units operate that way! My Franco Belge was that style.
My b-in-law has a keystoker and swears by it. Can't speak for Alaska stoves but they look nice. Reading the literature, it sounds like they are well thought out units. And the price is reasonable even with the power vent! BTU'S for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost! Can't beat that plus a LOT MORE of them if you need them! I like the fact that you can throttle it back to 5000 btu's. There is a learning curve on setting the stroke of the stoker but it's pretty much a set and forget after that.

Oh, and I used to make those 275 gallon containers for a living. I built a factory down here in Georgia, purchased and installed all the equipment and upgraded things until retirement.

One final edit! > each of those containers should hold about 2200 lbs of rice coal. You might want to cut out and put a trap door in the side at the bottom. I assume you'll cut the top of the plastic container away. You could just scoop it out but a door, if possible, might be more useable.

 

[Big papa]

Elf maze are u at all interested in getting a coal stove.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Elf maze are u at all interested in getting a coal stove.

He's already visited Keystoker and is visiting Alaska coal stoves tomorrow so I assume he is. Do you have one for sale?

 

[bill3rail]

The England Stove Works models are super reliable and easy to get parts for.
I installed it myself, and have NO regrets or issues with it. If I knew about AMFM energy, I would have bought from them, but did not learn about them until too late.

I love mine, and I am not trying to talk you out of Coal! I know nothing about coal stoves.

Bill

 

[Mt Bob]

Being an ex coal burner from md,tj and I agree on lots.Miss my old glaicer bay.Go to nepacrossroads.com and learn lots more about burning coal.

 

[Elfmaze]

Hey guys just wanted to give an update for those that helped. I did pick up a used Alaska Kast Console 3. So i'm going coal! hopefully it all works out and makes some heat! I do like that there are no computers to fry!

Just got the stove home and in the house.

 

[Mr. Spock]

That's a nice looking stove.

 

[tjnamtiw]

That's beautiful! You're going to have some MAJOR heat with that baby! 85,000 btu's if you want it! 80 degrees all winter! At half the cost! Can you tell how much you gave for it? It looks new!

 

[tjnamtiw]

Just heed all the clearances and floor protection. Also spend some time on nepacrossroads.com and learn about how to handle the coals so you don't get fly ash all over the house. When to take out the ashes after/before shaking down and using a water spray bottle are the major things to keep a 'happy house'.

 

[Tonyray]

P61 has 72lb hopper will keep your desired room temp within 1 degree ,easy to clean, 61,000btu,and it's as reliable as they come.check one out let me know what ya find.inthink you will b impressed

Don't forget the Xtra Large Ash Pan....

 

[altarr]

I have found many times that to be the case "get what you pay for" But could you expand on what it does better? less breakdowns, cheaper repairs, better heat control, safety? If I can justify the extra cost i'm there... But usually when buying things I look at the steel and they are all made of decent materials. the quad cb1200 has a bit more refinement to the Summers heat. But I can't really see much operational difference between the advance and the CB1200. Granted i've never seen them run side by side.

My experience only, I STRUGGLED with my englander(s) (yes TWO of them) for 4 years before finally giving up and buying the Harman.

We went from a CONSTANT battle to clean the thing to literally, an easy scrape of the burnpot every morning and a monthly shutdown and full clean. Contrast that with the englander where we were shutting down EVERY night just to get it running kind of ok again.

If you are going to be in the area for the next couple of years, going through a dealer will make your life so much easier (at least with a harman). I cant tell you how disappointed I was when the first part broke on the Englander (within the year)...when I called to get a new one, I was surprised to find I was on the hook to put it in. While my stove was roomy and I am mechanically inclined, you still had to have the tools and the desire to move the damn thing to gain access etc etc. Problem with your dealer purchased stove under warranty? Dealer shows up to fix. Done. They also are able to pick up the phone during the busy season. Give Englander a call during the heating season sometime....ill buy you a pizza if they pick up within 30 minutes. They are great when you get through, but they are not scaled appropriately.

The fault of the englander I had was in the design. The heat exchanger was almost totally concealed. As time went on, it got dirtier and dirtier despite daily attempts to clean and professional cleanings TWICE yearly. There are just places you cannot get to. This restricts air flow and leaves you holding the bag with crappy burns.

I cannot speak to the other midrange models, but I can tell you this. My oil bill in my 1896 uninsulated victorian went from 4k+ to ZERO. I spent just over 1.5-2k a year on pellets now. I went through more with the Englander then the Harman, but that is also due to the crappy air....

Forum folks, if you have an Englander and it works, great. I am happy for you...but frankly, I am depressed I wasted the money on mine.

Bottom line, this is a DIY product at a DIY price. Your mileage may vary but what you save on the $$$ in short order I think you will find you make up for in sheer aggravation and regret with the englander stove.

 

[tjnamtiw]

The OP now has a coal burner, not an Englander. Plus to make pellet stoves a viable, cost-effective alternative, you have to be DIY or wealthy enough to afford service calls. In your search for a stove you should have known that Englander provides excellent ON THE PHONE customer service but not in-home service.

 

[altarr]

The OP now has a coal burner, not an Englander. Plus to make pellet stoves a viable, cost-effective alternative, you have to be DIY or wealthy enough to afford service calls. In your search for a stove you should have known that Englander provides excellent ON THE PHONE customer service but not in-home service.

I see his purchase and I briefly flirted with coal myself but for the additional maintenance needed.

Again, in the warranty period of my stove, I have $0 service calls vs me doing it myself with the englander. So free parts and labor vs free parts AND a stove which operates WAY better than the Englander. Sure they are great on the phone, I did say that...but good luck getting through...

Again, to each his own, there are certainly lines that have been drawn on this forum, but if there is one purchase in 10 years I absolutely regret, I can easily say it was those stoves.

 

[Elfmaze]

I appreciate the opinion on the Englander stoves. I came VERY close to dropping the C Card on one of them. And I may still end up with a pellet stove in the future so Its good to keep gathering info. If I find the coal stove doesn't need to burn very hard all winter I may move it to heat my garage and get a Pellet stove so my girl can have her sparks to watch and slight smoky smell. Plus pellets are a more easily renewable source that can be made from virtually any plant matter. I think pellet production will continue to increase and it will be a long term viable solution. There are plenty of mulch farms that can spool up into pellets too.

The coal was just the right choice for right now IN CASE I needed the 85,000 BTU's

 

[tjnamtiw]

Oh, wait until she sees the beautiful blue flames coming off the coal! And the btu's will sure make a house a HOME in the middle of the winter! Of course, the extra money left over from not having to buy (if you can find them) pellets should make her happy. Those 3 IBC's full of coal should last all winter no problem.