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PE Summit Insert just ordered -- some questions

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Dave A., Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Have just ordered a PE Summit Wood Insert on Friday. The order won't be placed until Monday or Tuesday when the dealer said he would get back to me. So I have a little time to possibly make some changes to that order if necessary. But there are other issues before delivery.

    I'm in an appx 2500 sq ft (1900 downstairs, 600 up) cape cod style house very open plan in Bucks Cty PA area and have had a small Century (SBA) wood insert (1.5 cu ft firebox) for the past two seasons. It has significantly reduced the propane boiler use and cost of fuel. And it gave me a chance to see what's involved in heating with wood. But this size insert just can't really heat the house in cold weather. And it's been a lot of work trying to get as much heat out of it as possible.

    The insert is in the fireplace in the living room in the center of the house so it should be in a position to heat the house well. When I installed the Century I also installed a 6" flex SS liner 20' kit (chimney is a little less than that and almost all of it is inside the house except for a few feet above the roofline-- so I opted not to insulate.) If I were doing it again I would insulate.

    The important questions I have now concern the PE Summit I ordered:

    1. The install manual has a procedure for setting up for combustion air. What I make of this is, as delivered, it is set up to use outside air (from an ashpit) -- not an option for me, and if using inside room air-- which I have to do-- you are supposed to make an adjustment and remove a part.

    It seems that it shouldn't make a difference whether you remove that part to use room air, so I'm wondering if removing that box is really necessary or if anyone has experience having done that. I'd rather not remove it, unless it's going to negatively effect the installation in some way I'm not realizing.

    2. Not sure my expectations are realistic but what I'm expecting from the Summit is much longer burn times and more heat output to the point I won't have to add much other heat. Also, not having to constantly tend to it to be comfortable--letting fires just burn out without having to constantly replenish them.

    But maybe I'm expecting too much. My concern is that it isn't going to provide enough heat for the far rooms.

    3. Attaching the liner to the insert. Though the Summit will fit (according to specs), the fireplace is only 23.75" high to lintel. It looks like fitting the appliance connector into the flue collar may be difficult. I had a real problem with the Century partly because of the sloped back and having to bend the liner into 45 degrees and getting it into position. After wards I realized if I could have reached up through the stove through the flue collar and drawn down the liner it would have been much easier. Now I see that Regency and Osburn offer kits for that where there is a bolt fitted through the diameter of the connector and left in place. You just reach up through the collar and grab the bolt shaft and pull the connector (attached to the liner) down into the collar. (See installation manual for regency 3100 p.7 or Osburn 2400 p.16 for pictures of those parts).

    It doesn't appear PE offers that.

    Am wondering if there would be a problem if I were to not use a kit but just to drill two holes in the SS appliance connector and run a bolt with washers and nut through them -- to be able to pull the liner into position and leave that bolt in place. My concern is that there may be flue gas leakage around those holes -- might not be completely airtight. Not sure whether that should be a concern and/or is there a remedy.

    The dealer has agreed to deliver the unit and place it on my hearth. I'm planning on installing myself and figure I should be able to slide it in place myself.

    The dealer (who is new to PE) didn't offer an appliance connector since PE doesn't provide one. He seemed to have the idea you just connect the collar to the liner. Based on my reading of the install instructions, a connector is necessary. But I'm planning on reusing the one from my Century.

    4. Question about the embossed regular sized surround. I was never able to actually see it other than the picture, and my concern is that it might end up not looking good.

    The thing is I might end up not even using it. I could possibly get away without using the surround, but then I don't have the unit in front of me so can't see all of the issues there may be.

    I think that's about it. My main concerns are the combustion air setup, and what to do about the flue connector, and overall that I'm not out of line with the Summit Insert.

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  2. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    First, and aside from your four questions, have you considered installing a free-standing stove in the centrally-located living room? You could just keep the Century in the family room at the far end of the house, use the new stove for the bulk of your heating, and fire up the Century as a second stove for the rare really cold spell. Many of us in this area (I'm from Bucks, too!) are running multiple stoves, BrowingBAR in Doylestown really set the bar on this. If you were considering putting a pellet stove there, I'm assuming you've already figured out the flue installation.

    On your questions:

    1. No idea... but I'm sure a PE owner will chime in.

    2. You will get longer burn times from a bigger stove. More fuel at the same burn rate = longer burn. However, it won't heat the far end of your house any better (or worse) than the Century did... just longer. More reason for a stove in the living room?

    3. More reason to leave the Century where it is, and add a new, bigger, free-standing primary stove to your living room.

    4. There are several insert owners not using their surrounds on this forum. Many prefer the look, and it can help undo some of the disadvantages of trying to heat with an insert (namely, no natural convection).
  3. DKranger22

    DKranger22 New Member

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    Dave,

    Firstly, welcome to the forums! My first question is how well is your house insulated? I think this will play the biggest factor in how well any stove will perform for you. If your house is drafty and not well-insulated, you are going to be operating whatever insert you decide to put in there "hot" to overcome this. This, of course will reduce your burn times in order to achieve your desired temperature.

    It sounds like the Century is undersized for your application, so moving to a larger unit such as the Summit should improve things. If nothing else, you should expect to see longer burn times and less frequent reloads.
    Dave A. likes this.
  4. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    1.If your not going to use Outside Air, you will need to knock out a round prepunched plate in the right outer casing. This is where it will draw the inside air through.
    2. The Summit will give you better burn times and heat than the Century. 1.5cf firebox vs 3cf is big difference. Depending on how open your home is, and what kind of convective air loop the is or is not, will also be a factor. I load 2x a day, every 12 hours and heat 2666sf. Very open floor plan, with one room back here that does get cold due to no flow back here. The rest of the house is fine. I learned I had to learn patience, and went from loading 3x a day to 2x a day. And I am dealing with no over coaling issues now.
    3. Just use the existing appliance connector you have if you can. Get the connector onto the insert outlet and get a couple screws in if you can. With the weight of the liner, you won't have any problems with the liner pulling out, but a screw or 3 would be nice.
    4.Surround is a matter of preference, comes with the insert, so I use mine. Other insert owners take theirs off feeling they get more heat from the unit. With the Summit and the outer casing it has, there is no meed to take the surround off to get more heat, the heat travels between the firebox and the outer casings through the grilles and of course over the top from the blower. Not sure what you mean by wings, but keep in mind there is the outer casing on the Summit.
    Dave A. likes this.
  5. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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  6. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Thanks, DK Ranger22. It's a house built in the 1950's, so it's needed some added insulation in the attic and some air leak tightening over the years. All the windows are double glazed now, either thermopane or storms. But glad you asked because I'd forgotten about a hole in the LR ceiling that has to be repaired. It's had insulation put in place but there's no vapor barrier put over it. So I just did that and noticed a difference in the comfort level in the room. Not to the point of not needing a larger stove, but glad you reminded me.

    Thanks for the reply.
  7. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    1. That's good to know.

    2. So with a slightly larger house you're able to get sufficient heat out of it with only a couple or so fires a day. That's helpful. And you appear to be in an area with possibly even colder winters than myself in SE PA.

    How did you fix the overcoaling? Am assuming that may be a problem with the Summit.
    Was sort of hoping that their EBT would take care of that sort of thing. Do you have the Series A version. As I read chimneysweeponline's description is that what the Series B version will do (in theory anyway) is to make for a complete burn to ash by adding air even if you've set the air all the way down (where it would otherwise smolder).

    3. See the problem here is that I will only have a couple inches clearance on top from the front to reach in and put the connector in place --- not enough room for my arms to get back far enough. Once the connector is in place I should be able to fit a long screw driver back there to attach screws. I mean I could reach back with something like fireplace tongs, but I don't think I can move the relatively stiff liner into place with a tool like that. I'll be connecting the liner to the connector before I push the unit back. But the only way I can visualize getting a sufficient grip on the connector to attach to the stove is by reaching up the flue collar from inside the stove

    4. Wings-- the dealer used that term. Referring to the side pieces on each side of the door where the blowers are -- they stick out and are wider than the rear part that goes into the fireplace opening.

    The outer casing on the summit. I'm guessing that's a thin gauge steel and doesn't get very hot transferring more heat to the air chamber. On my Century, it's probably not as well designed as the Summit and the outer casing is a heavy gauge steel and can get over 200 degrees. At one point I tried insulating the back and side surfaces so as not to lose that heat. Surface temps in front were higher. But it didn't make for significantly better performance.

    Thanks for the reply.
  8. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    I was referring to the Century CW 2500 insert, and looking back at the manual, looks like I misread that. What it was actually warning about was that you could damage the fan/blower if you had it turned off when the stove was "over" firing.
  9. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    The high amount of coals is subject to any wood burning stove or insert. I have found two reasons for this to happen: 1. burning wood that is not dry enough. 2.Feeding a stove or insert more fuel before the prior load is burned down to an acceptable level. This is not the stove's issue, but more operator impatience. I don't have a high buildup of coals, merely because I just wait until they are burned down enough to have some for a reload. Usually happens on colder days/nights when a person tries to load more wood in before the coals burn down, in an attempt to gain more heat. Coals will build up quickly in this instance. On the occasion I do have more than I care to have, I just pull them all forward to the front of the insert and open the air some and let them burn down, fighting the urge to load more in at that time. Again, any stove will do this if the operator keeps stuffing more wood in when there are already more than enough coals still burning away. No EBT, biometric disc control or any other mechanism is really going to stop this, if wood is being tossed in on top of a large bed of coals to start with.

    I had minimal clearance to get my arms in the top also. I took the top off the outer case to give me more room to work. It was not easy, but doable. The S.S. screws for attaching are brittle, so make sure you pre drill the holes and run the screws in ahead of time (dry run so to speak)to assure proper sizing, and less chance of breaking or stripping the screws. By "Wings" i assume you are referring to the side grilles(side plates with hole patterns. Mine is a 2006 model, so probably the older style. The grilles slide into clips on the surround side pcs. and attach to the sides of the insert with two screws per side if I remember correctly. The casing is a thinner gauge steel. Note that they are gray and the portion at the front can be seen when looking directly at the front of the insert. I used stove paint and painted the air deflectors on top where the blower air hits and forces out the front and the front areas of the rest of the casing. All painted to match the insert and I like the look much better myself. The gray stuck out like a sore thumb. Everything around the insert and casing are going to get hot, maybe 200 degrees, I don't know, never measured the temps. Plenty of heat come out with the blower on, and even in a power failure situation a lot of heat comes out naturally through convection, and still heats the house pretty well. Blower still is a must for inserts and everyday burning, at least in this house.
    Dave A. likes this.
  10. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Re: coaling, that's as I would think. The only reason I asked about it was because in your original reply you made a point about the coaling -- so wondered if it could be a problem with the Summit. And in fact, looking at some older threads, there was concern by some guys that something about the Summit design made that worse.

    You seem convinced that's not the case and I'm glad to hear it.

    My experience is sometimes you build a fire and it just seems to burn so nice and hot there never is any real coaling until it dies out. And even as all the logs are shrinking away into white ash the heat level remains high. More often the logs turn into coals too soon and the heat level drops off. So, in that case, the only way I've found to keep the heat level high and also burn off the coals is to add small pieces of wood to the coals arranged to get the best air circulation. And to keep doing that until the coals are reduced. (I've seen you describe some other techniques with the Summit.)

    Was sort of hoping that with the Summit (or another large insert -- if for some reason I don't get the Summit) that wouldn't really be necessary most of the time -- having to squeeze that extra heat out of the coals -- that there would have been so much heat overall through the burn to keep the house warm enough that I probably wouldn't care about the heat level dropping off as the coals burn out. (Kind of the way it is for me with my Century only when the weather is in the 40's and 50's.) With the Summit, is that necessary to do when it's in, let's say, the 20's.

    You had said you only make about 2 fires a day, sort of assuming that's without having to replenish them and coax extra heat out of the coals. Or maybe that sort of thing is still going to be necessary much of the time.

    Curious about how much of the total heat the Summit gives you over the winter. I mean how much other heat do you need like from your central heat or other stoves?

    Just trying to get an idea what to expect in terms of increase in heat output compared to what I have.

    I probably should have joined sooner and started asking questions earlier. But it seemed what I was reading while lurking was telling me what I needed. I selected the Summit pretty much because there was a fairly large group here using it who seemed happy with it.

    One of the reasons I ruled out the Harman for example, was because there was so little written about it. Even though there was a lot I liked about it, no one seemed to be raving about it, or at least positively ;). In fact there have been some pretty strong negative experiences with it, which may or may not be representative of a problem. It is a kind of unique design which sort of appealed to me -- but I don't want to take the risk.

    Meant to ask about this before -- Most stoves have a break in period for curing the paint, etc. Start with small short fires, make the next one hotter, etc. I didn't see anything about that in the Summit manual. Is that not necessary?

    About repainting. I'd probably do that myself. Just high heat black stove paint spray from a can I guess. You must you mean gray metal inside the air duct. That sounds like a good idea--black it out. And in terms of that heat trapped on the back and side surfaces behind the surround inside the fireplace, you wouldn't insulate them, I guess. Do you think it might cause a problem to do that?

    How's the noise on the blower for you? With some brands there are a lot of complaints. I noticed one or two have complained about the Summit, but generally I got the sense it was quiet for most folks at least at usable speeds.

    Thanks again for the replies, Hogwildz.
  11. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    That sounds like it might help. Have since found a trick/tip here:
    http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/ffdoweltrick.htm
    It's been mentioned elsewhere on the forum here.

    Thinking about it, after you wedge that piece of wood in there and are done with it, it looks like it might be hard to get it out. But since it's wood, it would seem like you could just leave it there and it would just burn out when you start firing the stove.
  12. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    If you have a high bed of coals, and are not getting enough heat from them, throw some nice dry pine or poplar or other light soft wood on there, and it will give fast, quick, robust heat and help burn the coal bed down at the same time. I find the softer woods don't leave much coals, just a lil more ashes.
    20's, nah still load 2x a day. Hit the teens last night. Got up to 65 or 66 degrees in here, but 50+ spread of temps between outside & in, is not too shabby. I loaded around 9pm last night, and didn't load till 10:45 AM this morn, still had plenty of coals for relight, but not a massive depth of coals. Single digit and windy out, I may add some pine in between loads just to get quick heat for shorter burn to tide us over till the night feeding. I was loading 12PM & 12AM, andwas decent in morning, usually around 68 at 20s out. The lil woman has been working dif hours, so I try not to load too late these days.
    I find at 12 hours say in 30's and below, here is just the right amount of coals for reload. IN 40s and 50s the burn times will be longer or even just once at night.

    Its a steel stove not much going to hurt it breaking it in. But to do a few small fires first makes it easier on you while the paint cures, and also helps cook the moisture out of the new bricks.
    You will smell the paint with each 50 or 100 degrees you burn hotter, once it is cured, that will no longer be an issue, except for the oops moments some have forgetting to set a timer, or spacing on cutting the air back.
    Get yourself a timer, or use the oven timer, that is what I do.

    My originally outside back of the fireplace is now interior, actually the back is not in my soon to be new bedroom. I boxed the sides out and stove veneered it. So I see no benefit for me to attempt to insulate between the casing and the fireplace. Some do, other don't. I do not want to keep the heat in the stove, or overheat it by chance. I let it do what it is intended on doing, and enjoy as designed. If you are dealing with an outside backed fireplace, then I guess you could try and insulate between the of firebox and the outside of the Summit's casing.
    Make sure you use the right paint, some stove paint does not react well to other. Use the same brand PE uses.
    The blower doesn't seem loud to me on high, def not on low. But I do turn the TV up more when it is on high. You can set it either on auto or manual, I use manual and usually leave it on high in the cold weather, only turning it to low before reloads.

    Glad to be of whatever help I can be. I know the Summit pretty good.
    Dave A. and Joful like this.
  13. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    When are you planning the install. I may be able to help. Helped a few others on here over the years.
    Whatever you do, plan, do it right the first time, and be safe.
    Dave A. and Joful like this.
  14. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    I'm supposed to find out today what the status of the order is. Dealer said he'll call. I had told him I'm ready anytime after Wednesday. Now, not sure I'll be ready by then though. I still haven't gotten up on the roof to clean out the chimney -- maybe it won't rain today. It should be warm enough. But it's probably not coming before next week anyway . And I'm not going to disconnect the Century till I know it's coming.

    He said he could put it on the hearth for me (about 12" high). I hope they understand that means taken off the pallet. I should be able to jockey it in myself. Of course I'll have to get the Century disconnected and taken off the hearth first. Last time I built a temporary extension to the hearth so I'd have more room to maneuver and get back in there if necessary and the Summit is almost twice as deep.

    If I were smart I'll have everything ready -- new steel block off plate and Roxul (been using fiberglass and aluminum) and get the liner fitted (might have to cut it a bit) and into position so that I could have them help me move it back into position. Not sure how they're going to react to that. There is prep work that has to be done to the Summit before you slide it back-- the air thing (that probably could be done after--the right side is open at this point), but I'll have to find the screws for taking off the top (not clear in the manual). Dunno if they'll mind hanging around for that.-- I don't think they even have experience with PE. (They just merged with another dealer that carries it -- I went to the other dealer to see the Super -- didn't have a Summit, have never actually seen it other than pictures and Youtube video.).

    I appreciate the offer and if I have any problems or questions, I'll holler. I generally take my time with these things and don't get into a step until I'm really sure about what I'm doing.
  15. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Unfortunately I buy wood. And it's only hardwood -- maybe some poplar. I'll try some of that for the coals. I generally put aside the bark strips and small splits which also flare up nicely. Sometimes will use paper that's starting to back up -- been very few cold starts this year.

    I've got wood to cut up outside, but keep putting it off. Hopefully after I get this new stove set up, I can get to that. And I'm looking for a new wood supplier on Craig's list. Last year I let it go till late November. Guy I've been getting it from says it's seasoned, But until late January, February it's not as dry as it should be.
    Yeah I use the oven timer or the microwave if the oven timers occupied. That's basically what Quadrafire's ACC is all about -- a 30 minute timer to close it down to the setting you want.

    I'll have to see how much heat gets trapped back there before I'd even decide to do it and I probably won't -- it's an interior fireplace. And if you don't use the surround the heat get's out to the living space. OTOH there's a lot of brick and masonry -- concrete slab floor some brick walls so any trapped heat behind the surround is going to warm the masonry. I regret doing it with the Century because the cert label got a little discolored from the heat, and I'll have to explain that when I go to sell it.

    Stone fireplace sounds nice and it'll be great to have a warm bedroom right next to it. As it is, I'm still using my LR as a shop -- so getting no benefit from the warmest area, other than to get warm tending the fire -- maybe that's why I spend so much time doing it:). I still have a lot of work to do on my fireplace too. I added the raised hearth last year. And now will have to close off the open side and finish the mantel. Was planning to use wood, but clearances with this stove vary from the manual to the brochure--hope the manual rules, otherwise may have to use stone or something cast-- more involved and $ than I want.

    I didn't mean "repaint." Was talking about doing what you did. Or did you match PE's paint for that.

    A large pine was cut down and there's been some logs in a driveway down the street for awhile. But that's too big for me. I don't have a lot of experience with the chain saw. My wood guy offered to give me some large logs back in the fall -- I think after Sandy he had more than he could handle, but I turned him down. I'm not ready to start doing that yet -- don't have a splitter. And I haven't even cleaned up what I have on my own property. It's a lot of work just stacking and storing what they dump in the driveway and hauling it in every week when you're new to wood heating. I probably should get about six cords for next year. If I'll end up using about 3 this year and didn't even start burning till December, not sure if I'll use twice as much next year with twice the capacity -- so there's some left over to season better.

    I know you do, been following your posts about the Summit for a little while now;) And the info has been very helpful and appreciated.
  16. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    If you're buying hardwood, you should be buying your 2014 - 2015 wood right now. Your 2013 - 2014 wood for next winter should have been stacked a year ago. Figure 18+ months for most hardwoods, 9+ months for most softwoods, and 24+ months for oak.

    Most of us work hard to get 2 - 3 years ahead on our wood supply, but if you're buying it, it's easy! Just buy 2 - 3 years worth now, and then 1 year's worth each year thereafter.
  17. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Well if you've got the room for it.
  18. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    Hey... Bucks ain't that crowded, yet.
  19. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    I meant I match the stove paint that PE uses. If I can find where I put the can, I'll share the info.
    If you can manage to go 10-12 hrs between loads(resist the urge), you won't have much for coaling issues. Unless the wood aint dry, but still should not have too much coals.
  20. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Or so they would have you believe.
  21. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    The series B is different from series A. The ash lip, EBT, clearances, lot's of little things -- it might be painted inside there on the series B. Don't remember noticing it on the Super I saw on display. Anyway wouldn't be doing it right away, so no rush on that.

    See what I'm beginning to understand about the Summit and EBT is you can turn the Summit all the way down like a CAT stove. With others, the EPA requirements won't allow it because of the risk of smoking and smoldering, so the low setting lets much more air in with other non-CATS. If I'm understanding the Summit correctly, you can turn it all the way down and it it's not going to burn dirty -- because EBT will prevent it. With mine for example, I'll never turn it down beyond a third because there's a high risk it will burn dirty. And Century's all the way down is still allowing a lot more air than the Summit where all the way down is no air like a CAT stove -- if I'm understanding this right.

    I think you're right about the coaling -- certainly more chance of wood breaking up into coals prematurely, the more you disturb them when they are at a certain advanced stage by let's say adding wood, where they might have held together longer and turned to white ash producing heat longer -- my observation anyway.
  22. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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    I am the "they". ==c My family owned more than 500 acres in central Bucks when I was a kid, and I could walk from New Hope to Washington's Crossing, and Upper Makefield, without ever leaving my family's land. Now down to under 100 acres, all in New Hope, but I still see plenty of green in all directions.

    My family started settling in the New Hope area in 1692, as squatters. Received their first Penn's grant for 240 acres in 1726.
  23. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    SE PA
    That's interesting -- so that's why there's all the over development in Bucks. But not sure what that all has to do with whether I have room on my property to store 18 cords of wood or not. Or are you offering some space on yours;).

    Seriously, I appreciate the point of view but I'm still at the learning how to stack stage. Techniques, and where to put it. To start building woodsheds is down the road after I move -- not planning on being here more than a few years. First year (only been at this two years) I used 2x lumber over 4x4 pieces as a base (materials I've been saving for other things), but didn't know how to support wood at the ends of the rows (my first wood guy showed me how to do it that way). This year I heard about free pallets, got some, and used long stakes in the ground to support the ends -- don't want to invest a lot of time and money on something that's relatively temporary at this point. The stakes didn't hold well.

    But I'm thinking about killing 2 birds with this if possible. I lost most of my privacy fencing in the back over the last few years and been thinking about stacking wood along the perimeter of the property back there, but I can't really do it continuously -- as long as the fence-- so will have to do it in sections but supporting wood at the ends of the rows are still the problem.
  24. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,071
    Loc:
    Philadelphia
    We're in similar positions, in that I just moved a little over a year ago, and had to start from scratch as well. I came up with what I think is a good way to get some quick stacks up, which was to set up one-cord cribs using four pallets. Two lied flat on the ground, and two propped up as book ends. The only cost to me is two 2x4's and a few screws per crib, each of the 2x4's being cut in half and used as gussets to hold up the book-end pallets. If a pallet is 40" x 48", then my crib is 40" x 88" x 48" high. I stack the wood a little above the crib sides, knowing that a stack 5'-3" high in this crib will be exactly 1 cord.

    You can sort of see one in the second row (partially hidden) in this photo from my first summer in the house:

    P5050003.JPG
  25. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2005
    Messages:
    46,548
    Loc:
    South Puget Sound, WA
    Getting very far away from the topic folks. Pick it up in the wood shed.

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