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PE Summit Insert just ordered -- some questions

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Dave A., Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    That's a good idea. I considered something like that -- the bookends -- but the pallets seemed to be at a premium at the time, plus I wanted to go higher -- 6 feet, fence height. I do pick up scrap lumber for kindling -- might be able to use some of that and fashion something at the ends, or just get extra pallets and do that.

    Just ran a search and saw something about criss-cross stacking. I guess that's like 3 16" splits one way then alternate the next layer direction, etc. I wonder if you could go 6' high doing that, and if it would even be sturdy enough. That's something to play around with.

    Problem with the pallets, is that they're not always layed out so you can stack in the direction you want.

    It would make sense to overbuy now and keep the wood stacked (buying cheaper unseasoned) for a year or so -- where I want the privacy. When I started doing it back there, seemed like a nice idea but by spring my wood pile fence was all gone. And back there was not really convenient for the current season. So what do you do? -- You move your stacks that are for the current season closer to the house after they've aged and then use the same area for unseasoned, I guess.

    It's a lot of work. I like to bring wood in only about once a week. I've gone to a wheelbarrow. To be carrying 10 or so pieces at a time with a log carrier every day or so was not making me very happy. It does mean keeping a lot of wood in the house.

    But I guess I have to check on the pallet availability soon. It's labeled as free firewood, so might not be a year round kind of thing.

    So in your photo, looks like there's only one section with a tarp over. Do you not need to cover the stacks that are not seasoned yet? And you keep it all together and don't move the current season closer to the house.

    You're pretty far away from the house. Though you don't want to get too close to the house with these large wood piles. I have to find some good articles on this -- what to do, not do.

    Looks like this should be moved to another area. Maybe you know how to do that if you reply.

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  2. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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  3. Joful

    Joful Minister of Fire

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  4. tim1

    tim1 Member

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    I do not know about the inserts, but on my summit, you can remove the secondary burn chamber and reach right up through the 6 in pipe. Could predrill a 1/4 hole and then put a bolt and double nut it. Doesn"t need to be tighter than the hubs of hell, it is not going anywhere! Use a long piece of 1/4 all thread and it would be easy. Stainless!! Do not be afraid of the stainless burn chamber, just take your time. When you close down the air on the summit, you cannot really close it all the way shut, it has a welded stop to prevent that. In photo of holes, the big hole is primary air and the small hole is inside the ebt chamber. In photo with wire,this is secondary air path into burn chamber or baffle, but you can see the tube at top through the 6 in hole the stove is hanging from my hoist. Rest assured you are making the best choice! Tim

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  5. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Remove secondary burn chamber -- Guess you mean the baffle. Guy who delivered it (and installs them -- kept making a point of that -- "I install these":)) shook his head "no you don't remove that"

    But I'm going to be cleaning it eventually and will need to remove it then. I'd like to know now what that's all about and if it makes it easier to get the liner attached -- I'll remove it. Of course, it's my stove. A pro installer is going to feel different.

    What I didn't ask him and should have is how to make bends in the liner. There's got to be an easy way to do it. I end up forcing it against a thin edged object like the damper housing and try to bend it -- but am afraid of causing a kink or hole. I bent a cut in half soup can over the damper edge to try and soften the bend -- but there has to be a better way of doing this.

    About running that bolt through the appliance connector. Apparently you don't think there's any problem with it not being gas tight. Don't really know myself, just asking. I'd feel better about doing the dowel trick I mentioned in another message. But as far as leaving it in there to burn up, that might be a problem -- it would probably take awhile at temps lower than in the stove and smoke up a lot -- might be better just cut it out with a saw if it doesn't come out easily.

    Am not seeing a small hole in that photo.

    Don't know why I thought I'd be able to see the EBT in the bottom of the firebox -- at one point someone said something about being careful that excess ashes didn't get into it. So I assumed it was on the floor under the bricks. Am wondering if I even have an EBT because I don't see it anywhere even looking underneath there, where the air comes in.
  6. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    It was delivered today. I'm generally happy with it -- but I can be pretty picky:). One ugly weld between front and top of stove doesn't look very professional. Of course you don't see it, it's hidden by the cast top piece (which you take off during the install) It's probably okay (though I don't know how to determine that) but it's not smooth -- looks like done by a trainee doing his first weld.

    And there's another one of these really ugly welds on some kind of air supply housing (with several holes in it) at the bottom of the door opening inside the firebox. And that's covered by a loose piece of curved metal also with holes supported by 2 studs which keep the piece from falling into the firebox. So the loose piece sort of jangles around there -- unless something is missing. If this is right, am wondering what's it's purpose and why is it like that.

    Still, it's a nicely made stove, am certainly not unhappy with it. It looks good with it's cast top, door and ash lip as well as the grilles for air inlet are nicely done compared to many other steel inserts in this size. Directions are pretty bad and often ambiguous. But that's the way these things often are.

    Last night as I was double checking things, came across a big inconsistency. In the brochure for the Summit insert it indicates that you need a 34" wide fireplace opening and they draw the front part that needs to go into the fireplace as 34". However, the install directions claim only about 28" -- which I've been counting on. Then I checked chimneysweeponline's site and he indicates the old Summit A model required a 34" wide opening -- but he shows pictures of the series A (as the current model?--a little confusing.)

    Still PE's current brochure on Summit -series b (I'd think) width dimension was a concern. Turns out the brochure was wrong about that and other things like saying that the blowers are optional on the Summit insert where they are actually included. So explained to the delivery guys my concern about the dimensions and we checked before they took it off the truck.

    The two problems am running into right now are removing the air box (see attachment page 9) and connecting the flue liner.

    Right now it's sitting on the raised hearth with that air box blocked by the hearth.

    Hogz was telling me that it was on the right side of his, but mine, Series B, is different, It is in the front under the air control lever as you can see by the drawing in the attachment. The front of the unit has to be lifted to get the box from underneath. I'll have to figure out a way of lifting the front and keeping that box exposed. Am afraid to slide it forward -- there may be too much weight overhanging the edge.-- I think I may use some blocks in front of the hearth on each side leaving the center part exposed and jog it onto the blocks -- Hard to tell where the support points are -- the thin gauge housing covers everything -- I see two in the front, but not sure where they are in the back-- the firebox stops several inches in front of the back.

    I still don't understand why it's necessary to remove it, air should be able to get in, you'd think, with it not removed is the setup for air coming in from a hole in the floor into the fireplace.

    The installer was telling me that I should go up on the roof and release the band holding the liner and pull it up so that it's above the point where the summit will slide in (about 1') and then re-tighten the band. Go down move the Summit in, go back up and release the liner. Makes sense if I weren't doing a block off plate. And makes it understandable why installers are so averse to them.

    The block off plate really complicates things in a tight height situation like mine -- only about 1" clearance from the lintel to the top of the collar.

    The bends in the liner have to be made before you put in the block off plate. And once that's in you can't really pull the liner down with the block off plate -- it will prevent pulling the liner since the liner is bent above it. You have to leave enough slack to connect and then somehow push the liner up. And the ss "flex" liner is not like a dryer vent --it's rigid unless you force it into bends it only flexes itself a bit over a long distance.

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  7. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    There's certainly a lot to pick up there. But as a raw neophite, I sort of wanted just sit back and read an article or two. Turns out there was something at woodheat.org which I happened on. Then picking up ideas by following threads here was a little easier.
  8. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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  9. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Wow, they really changed quite a bit on these new ones. At least the blower motors look easier to get to.
  10. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Doesn't really matter gap or no -- start trying to bend around a thin gauge block off plate as the fulcrum, the plate would bend up or bind up. The only way I can see to do it, is the way you did with an aluminum tubing mock up first and then form the bends in the SS outside the fireplace. But that won't really work with a full liner. You'd have to do it in pieces.

    I have a very unique set up. The chimney runs not in the center but on the far left side of the fireplace. The fireplace has been made to look larger by building a false right side where it was on a two sided corner and the short side is closed up. To make it look centered the Summit has to be placed at the far right side of the real fireplace. So the liner runs down the chimney on the left side, makes a sharp bend to the right to get through the right side of the damper (over 2' to the right of where it comes down the chimney) and then comes down through the block off plate and into the stove. Those bends have to be made before the block off plate is installed. You can't make those bends around the block off plate. And if you try to push the liner up out of the way, you'll tear up the the block off plate or get stopped by it.

    The way I did it with the Century was to make the bends from inside the fireplace, sliding the stove in and out, trial and error, till I got it right. Most of the main bends are really done. So the idea of pulling it up from the top and cutting it at the top is going to throw everything off at this point (as easy as it sounds, it isn't going to work in this case.)

    I think I've got to cut it from the bottom -- little scarier cause you don't want to cut too much. So I'll probably have to try cutting a few times, a little bit each and seeing how far I can push it up to slide the Summit in (if I make a mistake and cut too much I'll just have to use a coupling). Might even have to make or almost make the connection, and when that's right, slide it back out and install the block off plate. Am suspecting will not be firing it up this weekend :confused:.
  11. tim1

    tim1 Member

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    Hey dave, the pipe just slides in the collar on my stove and then screws secure it, not seal it. You will not see the ebt hole as the box covers it, I had mine off replacing a bolt in it. Tim
  12. tim1

    tim1 Member

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    Oh, if you do see it in my photo, click on photo and it will enlarge it. Tim
  13. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Haven't done it in a while. But I'm remembering that it's a friction fit, or that's what they called it. So it does fit in tightly--assumed that meant gas-tight. Maybe your idea of double nutting it would be the same thing -- especially if you did tighten it down. It's probably okay -- but I'd want to hear from a chimney expert before I did it. Probably be safer and not cause any questions down the line, using the temp piece of wood in there not leaving any evidence;).

    What box? If you mean the EBT box, I can't even see that on mine.
  14. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Aha! Those small photos are cropped.
  15. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Would be nice if some Summit owner could give some feedback on the idea of whether it's necessary to remove that air box or not -- if not using outside air. And if it does need to be removed -- just what's involved.
  16. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Okay. I see it now. When you remove the air box (which is basically a block off behind the air control) you can see what's going on. I see where the welded stop that Tim mentioned is preventing the air from being closed (either I misunderstood chimneysweep's explanation, or he is mistaken about it); but a good portion of the air inlet is left open at minimum setting.

    Looks like Tim's got a Summit Series a. Now I can see underneath mine and things are a little different in series b. The main air is the same but the ebt in series b is in the back of the stove close to the column supplying air to the baffle for the secondaries. (I can't really examine the ebt, it's still sitting on a floor surface.) But according to descriptions the ebt now only supplies air to the secondary area. So I guess there is likely less of a problem with the ebt getting filled with ashes. Where Tim's ebt hole is, there's a real small hole (1/8") with something welded over it partially blocking it.

    In Tim's photo of the holes, that piece on the right side of the big hole (that I first thought was a piece of duct tape) is the welded on blocking mechanism for the air control).

    And for those (like me) who sometimes have a hard time figuring what's going on in close-up photos. In Tim's holes photo, you're looking underneath the stove up towards the front of the firebox (at the weld of bottom to front) under the door. I can't see that on my insert because the ash lip is there. If I removed the ash lip I'd probably get the same view.

    The other photo, where you're looking up towards the back wall of the firebox -- On the back wall those are firebrick and the retaining clips for them. And something in front of them. I didn't understand that photo at first. But the important area there is the baffle area which I still can't figure out from the photo. Will need to see that on my on stove.

    Haven't removed my baffle yet so I can't compare. Wondering if there's a trick to doing it to avoid messing up the gasket.
  17. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    And, in case anyone runs into this problem in the future. It doesn't appear to be necessary to raise the stove or set it on blocks like a car to get under it to get that air box out. If you remove the front plate which the air control comes out of (the bolts holding that plate also hold up the cast ash lip so the ash lip will drop down onto secondary supports) you can remove the air box from the front of the stove rather than from underneath as I did. (Tsk, should have seen that before I went to the trouble, but am not that good a mechanic, I guess. But moving it forward onto blocks gave me more room to work in the fireplace getting the liner in place)
  18. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Didn't mean to sound argumentative. Just frustrated running into problems. The liner had to be rebent and repositioned, and I was just hoping for shortcuts.

    Also. That was a good idea about ovalizing the hole and using rope gasket to seal around it.
  19. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Yeah, I know. Usually move pretty slowly on these things.

    Yesterday was spent getting the liner hooked up to the insert. And I know pictures make this sort of thing easier to follow and everyone (including me) likes to see them. Just don't have a digital camera set up atm and don't want to get distracted with doing that. So please excuse the lack of photos. I really want to get this fired up.

    It was wet out snow/rain so didn't want to go up on the roof, but as it turns out, it might have been easier if I had. The problem with the tight overhead clearance is that without taking tension off of the liner by pulling it up at the top -- top of chimney -- is that the liner has to be moved out of the way towards right or left and then has to be right at the hole when the insert is pushed back into place. But even if it's lined up with the hole, its usually going to be canted a bit -- not perfectly vertical -- and has to be moved and coaxed by pushing a board on it as high up as the board will reach. If I had room to fit my arms in, that would have made it a lot easier.

    But to get to that point where I had the liner lined up with the hole, took 2 or 3 moving the insert in and out of the fireplace, even lying on my back on the floor of the fireplace reaching up with my arms and feet to bend the liner up above the damper area, and cutting an inch or two off of the liner at the bottom each time to where it would just work. And that liner is not easy to cut in the close confines of the fireplace damper area or even just below the lintel (and very noisy with a hack saw). I can see why the installers always try to make the cut at the top of the chimney.

    At this point the connector is in the hole completely bottomed on one side but about 1/4" up on the other. I hope that's okay. At one point I had the impression these joints had to be gas tight and I can see that's likely not the case. Though my connector fitted fairly tightly in the Century collar, it's definitely looser in the Summit (when dropped in to test it without it being connected to the liner).

    The problem I'm having at this point is drilling the hole for the screw to hold the liner in the collar. And I really need to do that because the insert is not where it needs to be -- needs to be moved slightly -- had to move it where it is to get the connector to drop into the hole (not that it ever just dropped, it still had to be coaxed bit by bit.)

    Anyway I can move the connector to where it almost bottoms out by holding it down but as soon as I release the pressure it goes back up the 1/4" or so. And if I do something like try to hammer a punch to make an indent for starting the drill, the connector bounces back out even more. And I can't see any way to clamp it down temporarily in place to have it where I'd like it -- completely bottomed out all around, then drill the hole there, and the screw would keep it in place.

    With the Century I never put a screw in it. It was held in place a lot better, even moving it around a bit the connector didn't move out of the hole. But with this one I can see that without a screw, if I move the unit, the connector is going to move further out of the hole.

    I've tried a titanium bit, I tried a self drilling screw. Tried a bit from my screw extractor kit. Don't have too many small bits for metal. Am better at working with wood. Have always had more problems drilling metal. Might have to try buying some new bits and getting some good cutting oil -- using 3-in one atm, might not be right. No problem on a piece of galvanized. But no go on the real deal.

    BTW the dowel trick did not work at all, you can't really get the leverage there, and the dowel or piece of wood comes out. And even putting a more solid bolt in there wouldn't have worked either. The liner had to be positioned from above. And with no room to fit my arms up there, I basically had to use a short piece of wood to push it into place a little at a time.

    So while I'm taking a break from it, and deciding how to proceed at this point, just thought I'd update the record on this.
  20. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Try a nice new Dewalt bullet bit. It has a small tip on the end of the drill to help it from skipping. You can also try starting with a small bit for a pilot hole, and then work your way up to the right size.
  21. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Right you are. That's exactly what I did. All it took was the right tool. Last night picked up a Dewalt cobalt bit (salesman at Lowes suggested titanium, but it was clear from the display titanium was medium duty, cobalt heavy duty) no problem at all -- once I got around to it early this morning, drilled the hole, put the screw in, moved it back in place, put on the surround, put the rest of it back together - side pieces, top, brick, door. Fired it up gradually to 450 for about an hour, then 600 or so for another hour, to cure the paint -- didn't really notice any smells.

    Have had it on for about 4 hours now, really puts out the heat, it's a shame I missed those colder days to give it a better test. The back and inside of the fireplace stays much cooler than with the Century. Took some IR readings, mostly around 100' back there. Which is good because right after I attached the screw, my punch with a plastic handle rolled off the top and down the back. Thought about taking off a side panel but some screws are in the back, so it's in there till the summer.

    Wait you said bullet bit, didn't see that, will remember to look for that next time I get bits.
    BTW any idea what those 2 little extra pieces of firebrick are for -- just spacers in the pack or to cover the open floor area around the column in the back, can't figure -- they aren't in the brick layout drawing.

    Not sure I got the baffle on right, am seeing secondaries coming out of the back from at the gasket area.
  22. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Not sure what the extra pcs of brick are. I don't remember having extra pcs.
    It is designed to have secondaries in the back also. Inside that channel on the back bottom of the baffle are secondary holes just like on the front & front bottom. Just hard to see them cause they are inside that back bottom channel.
  23. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Yeah, have come to think the brick pieces were just thrown in there to even out the firebrick package for shipping. There are 17 bricks so putting an extra space in there with the partial bricks (2x4 & 4x4), seems to be how they handled it. And those two long bolts (painted black) packed with the literature --guess you don't recall them or maybe you didn't have them. First though they might be for leveling or bolting down in a trailer or something like that -- but they don't seem to fit anywhere not the same size as the bolts anchoring it to the pallet-- won't fit those holes.

    Before you replied, ran some searches on summit secondaries and saw a few old thread on this-- one there was mention by a few that it's normal to see the secondaries in the gasket area. In the other threads Begreen makes a point that if you see secondaries there, it means the baffle gasket isn't installed right. http://www.hearth.com/talk/bookmarks/686/view-item

    And then the thread where you take out the baffle and have photos of it, you make a point that there are no holes in the baffle back there, yours had a hole drilled incorrectly in the attachment bracket and when you redrilled the hole, you stopped seeing secondaries there.

    http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pacific-energy-baffle-gasket-location.57774/
    http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pe-summit-baffle-close-up-personal.11646/

    You said:

    "I took my cirdelss drill and with the baffle in proper alignment & place, drilled a new "properly placed" hole just under the "poorly placed" factory hole, and the pin went in real nice and baffle stayed in proper place & alignment. After I achieved secondary burn on the newly cleaned out stove tonight, there was no secondary burn at the back of the stove."

    Also "I hope this helps clear up the misconception that there is secondary burn holes at the rear of the baffle. If you are getting secondary burn at the rear, check for a badly drilled baffle pin hole, and check you rear baffle to secondary tube gasket."

    Not sure why you're changing your opinion now. I'm going to try refitting the gasket checking the hook up, but right now my baffle's still over 250::F and it's been over 14 hours since I built my last fire --- and there are still hot coals -- amazing compared to the century!

    BTW about the baffle gasket. Found a link to your pictures of the rope gasket used as baffle gasket -- but the link's broken -- "discussion area is offline". If you happen to still have those photos would appreciate if you could post them again. Dunno if I mentioned this already or not (wrote it might not have posted it) but it looks like they're using a different baffle gasket now.

    Reason I say this is I ordered extra baffle gaskets and they sent the old style ones for Series A -- they are only about 4" long and just go around the secondary air column entrance into baffle. The one that came on my stove runs the whole length of the baffle and rests on the ledge that baffle sits on at back wall maybe 18" long with the opening for the air column in the center (but it has a tear in it). Or do you have something like that also?

    My manual does not mention the new style gasket but the manual for the Summit Classic Series b (freestanding stove, not insert) mentions the new part number for this gasket. Just trying to determine if I should be exchanging what I got and contacting the dealer. Don't want to do that and then find out I was mistaken. New part # Sumb.3139.6, old one is summ3139.5

    Any good place for a magnetic thermometer on the Summit? The two hottest spots I see from my IR laser therm gun are the area on top over the flame shield and the area on the front in the center over the door. My mag thermometer won't work in either place. Other places on front and top always seem much cooler. Got a feeling am just going to have to rely on the IR thermometer.
  24. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Those bolts if I remember correctly, are in fact leveling bolts. I believe they thread in in the rear bottom of the insert bottom framing or channels that the insert rests on.

    I was wrong back then about the rear secondary holes. I didn't notice them until a couple years back, they are very hard to see in that channel, and if you don't look hard enough, you won't see them. So correction is, yes there are secondary holes under that channel.
    I slowed down the secondary at the gasket, but have come to grips that it never seals tight there. And after discovering the rear secondary holes, don't feel it matters much if the gasket isn't perfectly tight.
    The design, well at least on mine, of where the baffle sandwiches the gasket to the channel, has no flat surface on the front of the vertical channel that runs from the floor to the baffle in the back of the stove. With no good, flat lip there to press the gasket against, it never really seals at the front portion. I thought of ways to add a pc of "L" bent metal to create a lip for the front, but again, after discovering the rear secondary holes, feel it is not a big deal now. The gasket merely just droops a little there. I am on my second home made gasket, using 3/8" rope gasket before, not I have 1/2" or 5/8" in there. The home made gaskets last much longer than the stock ones. I got 4 yrs or so out of the last one. This one is 2 years in I think.

    Sounds like they changed the baffle gasket design. 4" rectangular gasket that sits around the air tube is what I have. Mine never ran the length of the baffle in back.
    I use 2 thermos, on the face just above the door on each corner.


    SANY0014.JPG SANY0014.JPG SAM_3463.JPG P1010003_02.JPG Lt thermo.JPG Rt thermo.JPG
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  25. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    Secondary baffle holes photo. You can't see the holes in photo, but you can see the burn pattern they leave on the baffle. BAFFLE REAR SECONDARIES.jpg
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