PE Summit Problems

[RAM NJ]

I have been having problems with PE Summit insert putting out heat. I use oak that is 1.5 to 2 years old from my property. The wood lights easily, but lots smoke rolls out into room until the flue heats up enough to draft even with the window open. The problem is that I have a hard time getting the insert up to temperature. I can get it to 550 to 600 F, but it takes a long time and most of the wood is burned up by that time, and if I turn the air down, to soon, the temperature never gets above 400 F. Also, if I shutdown the air all the way when I reach 500 F, the temperature drops. I have been having this problem for almost 1 year.

I have an external chimney with terra cotta tiles and a flex SS liner to the top. The chimney is 2 feet above my roof peak. I installed a 24 gauge block-off plate with ceramic fiber insulation above it. The SS liner is not insulated. I have a corner fireplace with a long off-set, and the guys who installed it had an extremely difficult time getting the liner down the chimney. After I had problems with temperatures, the place where I purchased the insert said I could never get an insulated liner down the chimney with the long off-set. I have attached a crude drawing of my chimney setup. So is my problem the result of the uninsulated liner or the off-set? I thought about insulating with Thermix, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea in case the liner ever needs to be removed.

 

[karl]

First, the liner doesn't really need to be insulated at the bottom. The flue temp is pretty high there. Insulating down as far as you can would do almost as much good as insulating the whole thing.

How tall is the chimney?

Also, are you sure there is atleast some upslope on that offset? The more the better, but I think 1/4" per foot is what is required. Maybe one of the pros in here will tell you for sure.

My Summit insert can burn almost a load of wood getting up to temperature. I would consider using some really small splits to get a roaring fire going. Or perhaps, put some newspaper in there when you first start the fire to get a good draft started.

I think the lack of slope on the offset may be your probably.

 

[RAM NJ]

The chimney is 18 feet tall. I would be fine with burning through a load of wood to get the temperature up, but I can't get long burns because if I turn the air down below 75% shut, the temperature drops.

 

[Jfk4th]

18 feet with 3 feet upslope might be pushing it a little for a good draft. I think you need a min of 15 feet, which I guess you are about right at. I have 19 feet and it is a straight shot pretty much, my Summit would hit 1000F if I let it and when I stuff her full she flys over 500F easily with the EBT all night. If you are using good seasoned wood which is sounds like you are I would say it is the draft. Can you keep her open 30% and get a decent draft? The EBT should help but again maybe because you are right on the min for a draft requirements it is really tough for the stove to stay hot.

If you have tried smaller splits and still not heating up quickly I would say not enough pipe.

One more time, 18 feet straight up with a 3 foot upslope right?

 

[iceman]

is it 18 ft from the stove?
if it is then yes its the long offset combined with an uninsulated chimney ... you are not drafting well
try stuffing it with paper and seeing if that rips open the draft
i would def get that thing insulated.. but first got to hd by a 3-4 ft section of cheap pipe stick it it the end of yours and see if that helps your draft if so then you might need to add another section

 

[RAM NJ]

Yes, I can get a decent draft at 30% open, but if I go much beow that, the temperature drops. That's correct 3 feet of upslope and then 18 Feet straight up.

 

[iceman]

Yes, I can get a decent draft at 30% open, but if I go much beow that, the temperature drops. That's correct 3 feet of upslope and then 18 Feet straight up.

where is your stove thermometer placed at?
is this your first year with the stove?
when i close my stove the temp can drop sometimes as well but it usually will stay 5-600 for a while

 

[RAM NJ]

We had the insert installed about a year ago and had the same issues last year. I have two thermometers on the front of the insert and they are located just above each side of the door.

 

[iceman]

We had the insert installed about a year ago and had the same issues last year. I have two thermometers on the front of the insert and they are located just above each side of the door.

do you burn 24/7
you might have to get the s/s liner insulated

 

[Jfk4th]

Yep, I would agree with iceman, buy an extra 3-4 foot section and the draft should improve a lot. I think the rule is you subtract one foot for each foot you are going upslope (offset). So you would be around 15 feet again, with that uninsulated it would be tough for that beast to keep warm unless you keep it around 30% or more. This is my book is wasting the fine feature of EBT.

There are many online sites that you can get an extra 3 or 4 foot section for a little over 100 dollars, just look around for the cheapest deal and best pipe. Or you can do what a lot of people do if they don't want to wait and go to the local stove shop and pay top dollar...

With a better draft you will use less wood and get longer burns of course.

 

[RAM NJ]

I burn 7 days a week, but only burn between 6 PM and 7 AM during week days and I burn 24 hours/day on the weekends. If I had a straight shot up, I would pull the liner and insulate, but my fear is that I won't be able to make the turn at the off-set even if I don't insulate the off-set area. Is there something else i can insulate with other than Thermix? Can I stuff ceramic fiber insulation pieces down around the liner from the top?

 

[Hogwildz]

Can you post some pictures & include detailed pictures of where the liner offsets?
Have you had it cleaned since installed? Check the cap for blockage.
I agree with trying to add another say 4' extension of regular single wall pipe at the top and see if that improves draft (temporarily).
I can shut mine down all the way at 400-450 and she will still cruise up to 650-700 and hold steady.
Whats with the huge offset? Def. need photos.

Are you sure its lined all the way to top? And is there a chance the installer penetrated or tore the liner while installing?

 

[rg500930]

i had the same problem.i found in the warmer weather in the fall i was getting a longer burn times and sometimes i would get smoke coming out of the door.why don't you try this.somewhat easy.and i'm going to take it down in the spring.i think you get longer burn times because you can close the draft off more because of better chimney draft.and the chimney draft pulls more air throught the baffle burning the gases/smoke.the so called ebt gives extra air at the bottom just inside the box and the main draft that you control is the airwash supply.nothing controls the air to the baffle.incase you wanted to know.

 

[karl]

You can buy bags of vermiculite and pour them down the chimney around the liner. The stuff insulates well, doesn't burn, and will stay in a gravel form so you can get it out later if you need to. It's basically thermix without the cement added.

 

[rg500930]

yes i also put that in.but the liner doesn't stay in the middle of the flue.the liner will still touch the cold flue.so thats why i put styrofoam also.

 

[RAM NJ]

Thanks for all of the input. I cleaned the liner and cap in October and the amount of creosote wasn't too bad at all, and that was after burning from December 2007 through April 2008. I checked the chimney cap yesterday when I was replacing the chimney crown and the cap wasn't clogged at all.

The huge off-set is because it is a corner fireplace and it sticks out into the room several feet. The chimney is lined all the way to the top with 6-inch SS flex liner. I guess there is a possibility that the liner was torn slightly when the installer pulled it through the off-set, but not sure. Maybe I'll pull the insert this weekend and reach up to the off-set and snap a photo inside the off-set area and see if I can determine the condition of the liner.

 

[Hogwildz]

Don't pull the whole insert out. Pull the baffle out and reach up through the outlet.

 

[karl]

It's not torn. It might be crushed a little, but those things are tough to cut with tin snips, so I'm sure it's not torn.

Try and see how much rise that horizontal section has, and see if you can increase the rise of it.

 

[Hogwildz]

Correct, stainless does not cut easily, but the flex is a continuous spiral seam, that seam will come apart easier than it will tear or cut. Better to put a camera up & take a pic than assume.

 

[RAY_PA]

yeah, I'd want to check it too, if it was that hard to put in, something could have happened. And with that chimney, I would certainly pull the liner (maybe have to wait till summer) and insulate the straight run.

 

[precaud]

Ram, it can't be good for your tv to be right in the path of the heat rising from your insert, no?

 

[Hogwildz]

I was thinking the same thing.
But does look like he has a deflector in between them.

 

[precaud]

Yeah, but it's still the warmest spot in the house...

I'd love to put mine above my stove too, but have been balking for that very reason.

 

[RAM NJ]

Actually, the TV doesn't get hot at all as long as the blower is running and I run the blower on low-medium all the time once the insert is up to temperature. Also, I have a granite mantle shelf that sticks out 10-inches from the brick, which was a left over piece of granite from a granite shop and they sold it to me for $60.00. It matches the granite hearth extension. They sold me the extension for $40.00. They even cut it and rounded the edges for that price.