PE Super Insert. No Baffle?

[Squisher]

Today I serviced a insert and when I first looked inside the customer had cleaned out all the ash really well, great I thought, I hate it when people leave all their ash in there. Then I looked up and the baffle was missing and I was like 'wow, she even removed the baffle for me'. No such luck.

This insert is on an exterior masonry chimney with only about 14' of stack. The nice older lady tells me she's been burning it this way for a decade on her previous sweeps recommendation. She recalls the insert not working for her at all with the baffle in it and this was the solution provided to her. I don't know that she even still has the baffle. But even if she did her mind is made up not to use it. As a mere whipper snapper and a new sweep she wasn't taking my word for it not being proper. Also in this conversation it comes to light that her neighbours have complained to her about her smokey chimney. There was no convincing her to put the baffle back in, she was certain it wouldn't work. I talked at length with her about it. No dice. The sweep that had her remove it said she needed to because of the way the wind curled over the hill above her?

Also the company that installed this insert thirteen years ago on her main floor informed her that they wouldn't install a similar insert in her basement because they were certain it wouldn't work? I'm really questioning if that was recalled properly?

The chimney was fairly dirty with some sign of a smallish chimney fire near the cap, but certainly I've cleaned many dirtier chimneys. Liner was in good shape and came out really clean. She gets it cleaned every year.

My main question would be if there is any kind of a hazard burning without the baffle in place? I tried every which way to convince her to give the baffle a go and she's not doing it.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I think it just reverts to being a smoke dragon.

The baffle most likely stops flame from shooting up the chimney. Hence the chimney fire without it.

 

[mellow]

So it was just the secondary tubes? Pretty much a non-epa stove at that point as the gasses can't get hot enough to ignite the smoke with the preheated air from the tubes without the insulated baffle. They probably had the kaowool blanket blocking the exhaust.

 

[Squisher]

I figured it was alright, just wanting to put it out there to make certain. I mean I see various cheap 'builders boxes' fireplaces all the time with no baffle or anything. Easy peasy for a sweep.

I feel somewhat like I failed, because I couldn't convince her to put it back in. I think of all that wood....and smoke! What a waste.

 

[matt1@]

I'm not a chimney or wood stove expert, but i've seen on this forum before about changing factory installed items. Doesn't that make the ul listings void due to removing the factory designed baffle?

 

[Squisher]

So it was just the secondary tubes? Pretty much a non-epa stove at that point as the gasses can't get hot enough to ignite the smoke with the preheated air from the tubes without the insulated baffle. They probably had the kaowool blanket blocking the exhaust.

Yes the baffle. On the PE's it's the one big steel plate that makes the ceiling of the stove. I wonder if they had creosote/ash partially blocking or fully blocking the exhaust. A lot of crap will drop down onto there with a corrugated liner just from heating/cooling cycles.

 

[mellow]

Ahh that's right, like a Jotul c450 insert, so yea its a smoke dragon and she is snuffing it down and causing creosote. Guess she is burning it hot enough once a day or enough to burn up the creosote.

 

[Squisher]

I'm not a chimney or wood stove expert, but i've seen on this forum before about changing factory installed items. Doesn't that make the ul listings void due to removing the factory designed baffle?

That was my thought too. But it is a insert plunked right into an existing masonry fireplace. I get that modifying an appliance negates its certification but I'm more wondering if there is any actual danger from running like this? The inefficiency of it is appalling to me. I can't let it go. And more so that she had done this on a sweeps advice. Further confirms for me that I did the right thing in going it on my own and not 'learning' from one of my other local options.

 

[Squisher]

I explained it eight different ways how she was smoking out the neighbourhood and that that smoke was her fuel floating out of her chimney. Told her many times how I burn with the same type of stove/baffle, smokeless. Also many times how inefficient it made the unit and how much more wood it would consume.

She was quite pleased with how it burns, and not at all concerned with the amount of wood it consumes.

Eventually I had to give up and get going.

 

[mellow]

Some people are set in their ways, she gave it a shot and hated it and went back to what she knows, the other sweep probably got sick of all the calls about how it is not working right, so in one way you should be thankful she didn't let you put it back, I am sure your cell would blow up with all the after hour calls about how it is not working right and smoke rolling out the door during reloads.

 

[Squisher]

True! I really just need to let it go and I will, I just wanted to double check that she's not doing something inherently dangerous.

 

[begreen]

So it was just the secondary tubes? Pretty much a non-epa stove at that point as the gasses can't get hot enough to ignite the smoke with the preheated air from the tubes without the insulated baffle. They probably had the kaowool blanket blocking the exhaust.

The PE baffle is a combo deal in a stainless box. The secondary feed is on the bottom partitioned chamber. Above that is the insulation blanket and then a stainless cover on top of that. It's pretty hard to block the exhaust.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It's a really easy drafting stove too.

 

[begreen]

Yes, it surprising and irresponsible to have suggested running without the baffle/secondary chamber before exploring other remedies like a 6" chimney liner.

 

[VirginiaIron]

I would think that running this stove wood (haha) significantly reduce the efficiency and the transferred btu's. Also, a baffle should prevent the flames from lapping into the thinner wall connector, thus keeping the flames in the firebox and increasing the safety of the appliance.

 

[Squisher]

Yes, it surprising and irresponsible to have suggested running without the baffle/secondary chamber before exploring other remedies like a 6" chimney liner.

It is a 6" flex lined chimney. I would bet on no insulation. 13 year old installation. Burning without the baffle plate for I think most of that time. The interior of the firebox was in good condition and the liner was positively attached and in good shape. It cleaned up really nicely.

As a sidenote. I have cleaned another PE summit insert this year that looked like it was nearly plugged right off and the owner complained that after years of using it with no problem they could no longer light/establish a draft. Often I find build up on top of the baffle plate under the flue exit, ash or otherwise. I always endeavour to get to and clean that area of a stove.