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Pellet boiler

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by Fredman, May 6, 2008.

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  1. Richardin52

    Richardin52 Member

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    [quote author="Webmaster" date="1212297531"]Is that really a "feature"?

    One can assume that if pellets are burning back into the plastic tube, and it melts, that burning pellets can then both drop and get access to air (to burn more)...plus ignite anything that is on the floor, etc.

    Explain the benefits, please.


    If it is posible this can happen I would say this is very dangerous indeed and the boiler will have a hard time getting a listing from any testing laboratory like UL etc.

    Don't want to burst anybodies bubble here but Pinnical boilers made in BC Canada and sold for $6,700. have been tested and are listed and have a double auger system that cannot back feed.

    They have been on the market for some time and have a very very good safty record. I have one and will have to say it would be hard to beat this boiler as far as safe and effeceint operation is concerned. Did someone say they will be asking $12,000? for a Janfire??

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  2. Sting

    Sting Feeling the Heat

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    Wisconsin
    Plus a safety snap switch to shut down if the feed cup does become too hot - as in a burn back and a snap switch to shut the feed off if you loose the idle fire. Its too bad UL made them change from inducing combustion air directly by fan, to a power vent induced combustion air. But the feed system is still the most robust of others discussed here - second only to the far more expensive Baxi and its 240 volt worm gear reduction feed motor.

    This Janfire stuff it just too much of a cult!
  3. PelletOwner

    PelletOwner New Member

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    Maine
    It's already been UL approved, the safety record is fantastic (<2% failure rate in Europe, mostly due to bad pellets), they don't "back feed" (not sure where you got this one), and cost $8300. You seem to be very concerned about the safety of this model, but you put out a different system that actually doesn't have the safeguards that this system does in terms of separating the fuel and the burner. I mean, two augers is great, but you have to tell me where they are or what they do or else it's useless to mention.

    I'm not sure where you get this $12000 figure unless you're including the installation, in which case you're comparing an uninstalled boiler to a boiler that's installed with a new hot water tank, hopper, bulk pellet feed, possible chimney replacement, etc. Hell, Janfire only makes burners for the United States, so I'm not sure where you're getting this "Janfire boiler" thing. Bosch makes the boiler, Janfire makes the burner. You can switch these parts out if you want. Janfire and Bosch have been making burners and boilers since the last oil crisis - and stayed in business long enough to make their boilers/burners very efficient. I'm talking about decades of R&D;- when most American/Canadian boilers are still on their first or second hardware revision.

    I'm also not seeing a Pinnacle pellet boiler on their website. Maybe they discontinued the line?

    Ah, nevermind, it's the Traeger line. Traeger seems to be a bit preoccupied with making grills than making boilers.

    So, the Pinnacle boiler has a hopper capacity of...four 40 lb bags? With an internal hopper? And you think it's SAFER? No, thanks, I'd rather keep my fuel source separate from where it's burned. I'm also not seeing any failsafes prominently displayed on their site.

    I'd really appreciate it if people didn't go "OMG 12K SO EXPENSIVE" when they haven't even checked with a local installer to see whether or not it's going to be thousands of dollars to install system X. Chances are you're going to spend a little less on installation than on the boiler, but not much less.
  4. sinnian

    sinnian Minister of Fire

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    PelletOwner,

    Your information is a little misleading. This is what you get for your $8399:

    "Elsewhere on the site, $12,500 has been estimated as the installed price of a Bosch/MESys boiler system. That price includes a boiler, a burner, a feed auger, and installation. It is purely an estimate assuming a general installation charge that can vary widely based on the actual installation required. This figure also doesn't include a storage bin as there are many options both indoor and outdoor.

    Boiler/burner systems: (discounts are available for certified dealers)

    * 4-section Bosch boiler with Janfire NH burner and 2 meter feed auger, $8,399
    * 6-section Bosch boiler with Janfire NH burner and 2 meter feed auger, $9,499

    Storage bins:

    * Bin dimensions and prices to be posted soon.

    Indirect water tank

    * 42 gallon Bosch tank (stores water at full boiler temperature to be mixed for domestic hot water) , $655"

    That does not include any piping, both for water and venting, delivery, electrical, labor, etc. $12k+ is NOT out of the question. I bought a pellet boiler for $2k+ less and I am looking at around $10k (hopefully) with the above (piping, delivery, electrical, labor, and indirect tank (wish I could get that Bosch for $655 though)).
  5. PelletOwner

    PelletOwner New Member

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    I guess I could have phrased that better. It just grinds my gears a little bit when people don't bother to talk about the cost of installation, accessories, etc when they talk about "MY SPECIAL X SYSTEM ONLY COST Y DOLLARS". I'm not going to lie, my system cost a little more than that (but I also ordered european parts). It's misleading for both sides to quote the raw boiler price, and I guess I just got a little frustrated with the whole "my system is cheaper without delivery or installation, therefore better" thing.

    $12.5 typical install. Mine was $14.5k, but I also bought imported parts and needed an inverter v :) v
  6. Sting

    Sting Feeling the Heat

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    Your a fanatic aren't you????

    You can cast dispersions at every competing appliance but you don't take the time to look at the specifications that you claim others fail to see!

    As I mentioned above - this smacks more of a cult than a heater - and you extol the features and benefits more like a shill than a owner!
  7. PelletOwner

    PelletOwner New Member

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    I looked at the manual here: http://www.pinnaclestove.com/sheets/pb150mn.pdf

    I still don't see all the safety features that you're talking about. Can you list them?

    Thanks for calling me a shill, though! It really heightens our level of discourse when we call each other names.

    Also, if Janfire burners were a cult, there'd be a lot more people posting here in Swedish and German ;)
  8. Sting

    Sting Feeling the Heat

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    Sure - via your provided link - page 4 - figure 2 - Item 11 "Manual Reset" and item 15 " Low Limit Safety Disk"

    So I speak up because I think the webmaster has cut you enough slack on this and its time for you to relax!
  9. PelletOwner

    PelletOwner New Member

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    Thanks for the information, I couldn't have gleaned those safety features from that manual. How do they work? (Seriously.)

    Can we trade insults later?
  10. nchezy

    nchezy Member

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    Loc:
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    According to the Evergreen Heat website (Maine Traegger dealer) today's cost of their boiler is $6,950 plus $200 delivery drop charge for a total of $7,150. And the Maine Energy Systems Boiler system cost is $8,399. So the equipment cost differential is $1,249 (17.5%). So to me the cost differential does not seem like such a significant issue and certainly not worth coming to bloggosphere blows over. At this point the argument seems to be more of a Chevy vs Ford argument as far as the pellet boiler equipment choices go. PelletOwner appears to be the only person in America with a Janfire burner system installed (and the Bosch boiler component too??). He seems happy with the equipment and is reporting as such and now he faces the wrath of the skeptical majority. I think his defensive (possibly overexuberant) reaction is understandable given his "one against the world frame of mind" (he probably sounds a lot like owners of Mac computers 20 years ago, but I don't think fanatical is a fair description). I for one (as a potential Maine Energy Systems customer), am interested to hear his first hand account of this significant new pellet technology. Please stop your petty bickering and let the guy tell his story...I want to hear more about the details that will actually matter to me such as:
    - Do you really only have to empty ash 3-4 times per year?
    - Does the long screw auger from the bulk bin into the burner work OK (any mechanical problems or jamming pellet issues?
    - Do the controls work OK? and are they simple to adjust? (do they need to be adjusted?)
    - Have you experienced burn back and seen the "meltable tube" in action? Did it do the job?
    - Why did you decide to get the Janfire/Bosch unit in the first place (there are other "exotic" european units available)
  11. PelletOwner

    PelletOwner New Member

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    First and foremost, the Janfire burner is the "Janfire NH" for No Hands. It's pretty much a set-and-forget device aside from cleaning out the ash.

    Also, my boiler says Buderus on the cast metal, but also has a Bosch sticker.
    http://www.bbtna.com/StartBBTNAcom/Aboutourselves/Brandsandproducts/tabid/345/Default.aspx
    I guess Buderus is a subsidiary of Bosch.

    - I've emptied the ash once in late April, and I installed the system in March. It's about time for me to empty it again, but I've also been showing it off so it's been using a bunch of pellets.
    - The long screw auger works fantastically. It cost a bundle, but the workmanship is incredible. The auger itself is built to last for 30+ years. The motor is working fine, but apparently it's a "service replacement part" in that it may need to be replaced within half a decade if it runs too much.
    - The controls were programmed once by a technician and I was told not to mess with it if I didn't have a certification, so, no, they don't need to be adjusted, lol. I have a thermostat.
    - I haven't experienced burn back or anything of the sort, at least to my knowledge. The burner has quite a few temperature sensors on it, so I assume that if there ever was a problem the burner took care of it before it got out of the burner's safety controls.
    - I know one of the guys at MEsys, and they seemed to have a pretty good idea about what they were doing. I was initially afraid to switch, but after smelling Les Otten's house (nice 'n woody), smelling my house (kind of oily - you really notice it when you go into a non-oil-heated house), and seeing last winter's heating bill, I was convinced. I also didn't want to deal with the hassle of filling a hopper with bags, so I got a Pellistore from Janfire as well. The whole system itself works really well together, and I trust that the guy designing it wouldn't mess things up.

    - Nobody at MEsys is going to acknowledge that my system exists, mostly because it was assembled in someone's spare time. I also don't think my setup is 100% UL certified :|
    edit: but the complete system should be, I just have some custom stuff (an inverter) since it's all european and junk.
  12. Richardin52

    Richardin52 Member

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    OK, OK as Barney Fife used to say "Calm down people! "

    You know probably both boilers are good boilers. If they weren’t we all would have heard about it by now.

    I own a Pennical PB 150 and I think it’s a great, very safe boiler. I have not seen a Janfire and I can’t say anything about one. I can just tell anybody that’s looking that you won’t be sorry if you buy a Pinnical PB 150.

    Check out the boilers, check out the price and buy the one you want.

    Rich
  13. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Owner, you may be a true believer, but you do come on quite strong for a "regular" owner.....in fact, much stronger than the manufacturers and retailers that hang out here! So while we appreciate your passion, it is good to understand that while you may 100% think you have made the best decision in the world, others may not come to the same conclusion.

    If I didn't already have your word otherwise, I would certainly assume you are shilling or pimping for someone or some company.....if not, it does make one wonder why you have to continue pushing this stuff so hard. As Sting say....we can relax a bit, many more participants will be buying and installing those and other boilers, and we will hear from them in good time. Meanwhile, folks know who to go to (you) if they are considering the Janfire.

    So all is well.
  14. alaz

    alaz New Member

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    I do not mean to abruptly change the direction, but I am in dire need of help. I have not found a PB105 (harman) user over the past couple of winters and am curious about the field performance. I am debating between the traeger, the Bosch/janfire (which logistically is difficult being that the focus has been in Maine) and the harman pb105, which is the easiest for me to get my hands on. I would move ahead with the harman, but I had this concern I could not directly put my finger on...until recently.

    I have been sitting around contemplating my inability to move ahead with the pb105 and I realize my exact concern. This is based on my absolute lack of knowledge of boilers in general. If anyone can please help I would appreciate it!
    Here is my question: I have 2 zone hydro-air. Each coil is rated for 160-180 degree water and will output approx 60k BTU at a flow rate of approx. 6-7 gallons per minute. I have seperate circ pumps (taco 007 and 0011). I plan on hooking the harman into the heat and letting my oil (system 2000) boiler handle my dhw. The zones can both call simultaneoulsy, but this does not happen too often (on the coldest days more likely). The temp. drop across the coil is approx. 23 degrees. I want to set the harman at approx. 180 degrees, my return temp will be around 155. Can the harman put back out 180 degrees to my coil; essentially can it handle that temp. differential? I have a pretty well insulated house, (3600 sq. ft.). I thought I would run the harman on manuel, I question auto ignition in the heating season. With 2 zones I probably would have a call every 20 minutes, I thought it would be more efficient with a fire going, rather than cold starts. If the Harman won’t do it would the traeger or pellets in general. Any help would be appreciated, even a direction. I do not know how to approach this.

    Thanks!
  15. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Alaz, here is a simple truth.

    It will hard to find ANY long term users of any pellet boiler because the sales of this equipment was so low....as to not even create a blip on the charts. There would be very little reason for a market to exist when oil is below $3.00 - as it has been up until this year.

    As to the capacity, those technical questions are beyond my ability, but perhaps you can get an better idea by using BTU's instead of most of the details. This can be done in a number of ways:
    1. Your yearly use last year - or, better yet, use between fillups in the coldest part of the year
    2. A heat loss on the home
    3. Knowing for what percentage of a hour your boiler ran during cold weather.

    Then I would correct the Harman claimed output by 10-15% (down) to allow for various pellet types and grades.

    I would think you are correct in that the unit could fire full time during the winter. I assume the low is about 2 lbs per hour, which would be maybe 12,000 BTU output.....should be easy to use that and more.
  16. Mack The Knife

    Mack The Knife New Member

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    I wanted to check with Maine Thom on what you found and decided to pursue for a pellet boiler?? Or did you go in another direction? I remember reading this thread a few months ago and actually thought the Janfire Gent was probably Otten himself. From what I read he was the only one that had the early Janfire version installed as a show piece.
    More pellet boiler units are hitting the U.S. shores recently.
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