Pellet Hopper Fire

[SmokeyTheBear]

Defense would have to show that the "improper installation" affected operation in such a way as to cause or contribute to the fire moreso than faulty design.

Actually the plaintiff would have to show a design error, the respondent has more than one option and in fact can pursue several differing and what might appear to most folks conflicting lines of defense.

I also am not a lawyer but have seen several very complicated civil cases work their way through the federal court system. Ending in total destruction of the company that was the plaintiff. I don't bet on which way a case will proceed in court.

Anyway the OP is in Canada.

 

[F4jock]

Actually the plaintiff would have to show a design error, the respondent has more than one option and in fact can pursue several differing and what might appear to most folks conflicting lines of defense.

I also am not a lawyer but have seen several very complicated civil cases work their way through the federal court system. Ending in total destruction of the company that was the plaintiff. I don't bet on which way a case will proceed in court.

Anyway the OP is in Canada.

Assumption was that the plaintiff would principally contend poor design. Canada has a small claims system court handling claims of up to 25K.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Assumption was that the plaintiff would principally contend poor design. Canada has a small claims system court handling claims of up to 25K.

Plaintiff has the duty of proof in civil litigation even in small claims court.

 

[F4jock]

Plaintiff has the duty of proof in civil litigation even in small claims court.

Naturally, but the defendant must convince the judge that the plaintiff's contention has little or no merit, thus if a design flaw is alleged the defense must be able to logically refute that contention with precedent. Your assumption is that they would contend improper installation. In order to make that germaine to the defense they would have to show that this installation was a cause of the fire.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I make no assumptions and would not prepare my side let alone disclose it until the plaintiff has disclosed their side which they must do first.

I also would make no assumption that a small claims court would be the venue such an action would end up being decided in.

I mentioned the OP should go through his homeowners insurance company and that is exactly where I would start.

 

[F4jock]

I make no assumptions and would not prepare my side let alone disclose it until the plaintiff has disclosed their side which they must do first.

I also would make no assumption that a small claims court would be the venue such an action would end up being decided in.

I mentioned the OP should go through his homeowners insurance company and that is exactly where I would start.

Of course, but since the only apparent damage was smoke the 25K and under rule apparently makes it the perfect venue.

Not exactly sure what claim could or should be made under homeowners. I'd want to go after the stove mfgr no matter as I'd want my money back and why should I possibly incur a hike in my rates if I could avoid it? Oh and unless I knew the problem was my fault I'd never fire that stove in my house again.

 

[sass_eco65]

Here is the manual for the 2010 model. They have tweaked the unit so this was the manual I legally had to use. I purchased the stove in July 2014. The new model came out in 2012. This means that the older stoves have/still are being sold in hardware stores. I did not see anything at all about the termination having to be 3' higher than the OAK. All I saw was on page 12 that stated: Do not locate termination c) within 3 feet of a building opening or air inlet of another appliance;

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/40896/Drolet-Eco-65.html?page=31#manual

Also, there was absolutely no creosote on the termination of the pipe until the fire. These photos were after the fire and after the clean up we did around the stove. I will post a photo of the hopper. There were visible flames.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

There is a 39" requirement in Canada and there is mention of an even larger clearance 72" for a mechanical air supply inlet which is why I said the meaning of certain words is going to count.

In the US it is at least 36" above any air intake within 10 feet.

ETA: For completeness In the 2010 manual that mechanical air inlet clearance is listed as 6 feet.

 

[hyfire]

Question, when you measure vertical height do you count the fittings as part of your height? If you don;t then the OP only has about 1 foot of rise...outside. Next this could be a house problem of neg pressure in basement.. read about the stack effect and how you can test your setup even though its not directed to pellet stoves you get idea...

http://www.thechimneysweep.ca/2stackeffect.html

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I'd measure low point on the vent termination to the high point of the air intake extended to the plane of the vent termination if it says above if I was doing it, but I don't know what the measurement rules in either country actually says.

But I don't go for minimums if I can avoid them.

 

[sass_eco65]

I will be measuring when I get home later. I see what you are saying about the mechanical air supply smokey. Does the termination actually have to be 6' above or can it be for example 2 feet above but 4 feet over?

Either way, I am having the Fireplace Center sell me a better stove and they will be installing it as well. I have nothing to do with the installation of the stove as my insurance wants it installed by a W.E.T.T. certified tech. Also this way, if I have an issue I can just let them know and they will deal with it. Right now I have to deal with the manufacturer myself since I bought the stove then found an installer. The FPC is familiar with the stoves they sell and know exactly how they work so I feel comfortable knowing that.

My next question is are these clearances for the air supply different for every stove? I have seen horizontal terminations with barely any clearance to the air supply on many different setups. It seems like the FPC isnt too worried about vertical run outside, just as long as you are far enough above grade. They are the largest fireplace store in the city so I would hope they know what they are doing...

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

You will have to find a certified inspector but the diagonal in your setup would only be 4.47+ feet so I'd say no.

In the interest of full disclosure I am not certified in any aspect of heating systems, I also do not have any interests in stove makers, sales, or service.

But I have spent many a year reading and using technical manuals and have seen some strange things.

The clearances are somewhat the same, however they can be stove specific which is why you need the correct manuals and the manuals need to be followed.

 

[hyfire]

What are you doing with the old stove?

 

[UMainah]

The hopper lid does not seal like other units would... I dont know why. If you look at pictures of the stove, you can actually see that the hopper lid sits up a bit. We had about 2 bags in the hopper when it happened.?

Is this true for all eco65s or is there a defect/issue with this particular unit (hinge bent/jammed, pellets stopping lid from closing, etc)?
I've never heard of a stove that leaves a 1/4" - 1/2" air gap around the hopper lid.

 

[hyfire]

Is this true for all eco65s or is there a defect/issue with this particular unit (hinge bent/jammed, pellets stopping lid from closing, etc)?
I've never heard of a stove that leaves a 1/4" - 1/2" air gap around the hopper lid.

MIne is like that too, and I think the theory behind it is the air is pulled through the auger so there is always negative pressure in the hopper so the flame can't shoot rearward...providing you have a natural draft in the stove or via the exhaust blower

 

[Deromax]

The hopper lid on mine is actually vented. There are slots in the lid and the lid is resting on protruding posts so air can circulate freely. Go figure!

 

[sass_eco65]

What are you doing with the old stove?

We returned it to RONA and they are shipping it back to the manufacturer.

 

[hyfire]

I feel sad the OP had to get rid of the Stove the eco-65 is a work horse of a stove. I really can;t complain it runs well. These are sold by ALL the big boxes stores, if they were dangerous they would pull them off the shelves instantly. I do understand that you tried to do everything to code, but I don't think all the pressures in the flue were checked. to assure proper operation, and this led to the hopper burn back, when the power failed.

 

[whit]

Ignore longer UPS run times? So. . . . what if I'm away or asleep and the power fails?

If you put a relay in your thermostat circuit that shuts off the thermostat's signal when the power goes out, then a moderate UPS runtime is fine. That's assuming your stove runs on a thermostat. Got excellent advice here a few years back on buying the right kind of relay. Have it sitting behind the stove.

 

[Rayterio666]

I have the same stove with vent pipe 6' vert than 3 ' hor and then 15' vert. (4")
My vent is about 12' from the stove to the outside and about 13' bellow top of chimney.

I had the same problem twice, not after a power surge, but while the stove was working!
This is my 3rd ECO-65. The face of the stove warped on top of the door, and thos one is doing it also. SBI is telling me that my house has a serious neg pressure problem
How can a stove heat hard enough to warp the face of it if it is miising air! See pic of warp face. I would also like to send videos of my flames to somebody that would be able to tell me if my stove is starving air.
Tks

 

[hyfire]

View attachment 155656 I have the same stove with vent pipe 6' vert than 3 ' hor and then 15' vert. (4")
My vent is about 12' from the stove to the outside and about 13' bellow top of chimney.

I had the same problem twice, not after a power surge, but while the stove was working!
This is my 3rd ECO-65. The face of the stove warped on top of the door, and thos one is doing it also. SBI is telling me that my house has a serious neg pressure problem
How can a stove heat hard enough to warp the face of it if it is miising air! See pic of warp face. I would also like to send videos of my flames to somebody that would be able to tell me if my stove is starving air.
Tks

Sure send the video's. But I have an easy fix for the warpage issue, a heat deflector I made, works really well. I can make more if someone is in need. You had a hopper fire with the stove running???????????? I tested my stove with a power failure, no flames at all were going up the auger chute at all. You need to check the pressure in the basement vs the outside and see if its slightly neg or a lot neg!

 

[Darren111]

I know this is an older thread but for anyone doing research like I have been, this is for them.

Just took delivery of my new eco 65, 2014 model. There is now a rubber sealing gasket around the hopper lid that should prevent any residual smoke from entering the house should any find its way into the hopper.

I guess when I get around to installing I'm going to try and surpass the evl minimums go an extra 3 feet of vertical rise just to be sure.