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Pellet House pellet search and review "Ultimate Pellet search"

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by jtakeman, Jan 8, 2010.

  1. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    I can't say anything about the overall ash just yet. I have only burned about 1/2 a bag. I will probably finish them Wednsday morning or so. I will hold my coment on the ash until them. But I am not pleased at all with the heat numbers. I have to bit my tongue now! Don't need to make any waves. There are several long pellets in the bags. About 1 3/4 inches long. Just FYI!

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  2. Meneillys

    Meneillys Feeling the Heat

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    Actually it breaks down like this. EX 9001 the 9 is the year so 2009 and 001 is the day so it would be 1/1/09. So first number is the year and the last three is the day of the year it was made. 9269 out of the ny plant has long pellets 9066 has lots of shorts and saw dust.
  3. ke5hde

    ke5hde Member

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    Jay
    Looks like you have the same results I have had with them.
    Lots of long ones. Low heat.
    Have to run my stove on 4 just to get the same heat I get on 2 with the Greene Teams, Marth and now the Ligs.
    My ton is gone and I won't make that mistake again.

    Chris
  4. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Fellow members,

    It seems NEWP Schuyler plant has some new equipment installed. Similar to a brand new mill start-up. They have had some growing pains because of this. NEWP's reputation speaks for itself and there issues have been resolved with the latest batch of product. The least I can do is give them another go at it.

    Jack at Meneilly’s Woodland Products has offered to send 2 fresh bags for a retest.

    BT Ent. in bristol, CT. has donated 2 bags of the Jaffery, NH plant. I will stop and pick those up tonight.

    Thank you Meneilly’s Woodland Products and BT Ent. for the donations. Much appreciated.

    Take care.
    jay
  5. Dougsey

    Dougsey Feeling the Heat

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    Isn't a longer pellet going to feed slower and appear to produce less heat?
  6. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    I think so, You don't get the same volume of pellets feed into the burnpot as the shorter pellets.


    UPDATE: Taking a little break for a bit(Burning some grass pellets). But I will be back to this by sometime next week. I just had to see how the grass pellets burned from macman's grass thread.
  7. mc2055

    mc2055 New Member

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    I have the same results with low heat & lots of ash. Been blowing through this ton as well. I am glad actually, thought it was just me. Thanks for your help
  8. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    NEWP Jaffery, NH. results

    Temp average 243ºF

    Ash volume was right at the 16 ounce mark on jar.

    Ash weight 6.336 ounces

    Ash Percentage 0.495%

    Fines Very low Less than 1/8 cup both bags.

    These pellet's were donated by BT Ent. Thanks BT for the help in my testing challenge

    Notes: Code on bag was 2047

    Attached Files:

  9. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Reserved for NEWP Schuyler, NY. Burn 2 results

    Temp average Batch 1020= 225ºF and Batch 1001= 230ºF

    Ash volume was at about the 18 ounce mark on jar.

    Ash weight 6.904 ounces

    Ash Percentage 0.539%

    Fines N/A

    These pellet's were donated by Meneilly’s Woodland Products. Thank you very much for the help in my testing challenge

    Notes:

    Attached Files:

  10. Meneillys

    Meneillys Feeling the Heat

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    According to UPS tracking the 2 bags I sent you will be there tomorrow! Im not sure what condition the boxs will be in, the guy didn't seem to like the fact that I work for T.S.A. at the air port. He probably had a bad experience flying. I have been trying them in my stove with a 15 degree increase from the older stuff and less ash. I was told that the NY plant is scraping the old stuff and reworking it into new pellets so the bad stuff should no longer be able to make it out to consumers. I sent two bags one date code 1001 from Jan 1st and a bag marked 1020 Jan 20th.
  11. LI-Mini-Owner

    LI-Mini-Owner Member

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    Looking forward to the test results... I'm headed to my dealer this weekend to pick up a couple of fresh bags of NEWP from the NY plant to compare with the ones I have that were from July 09. The dealer said he'd have no problem swapping my July ton with new ones.
  12. geek

    geek Minister of Fire

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    jay, as always, thanks for the time, effort and dedication to share testing results, helps all of us in this community of pellet hunting.

    GREAT JOB..!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ..
  13. Oilhater

    Oilhater Member

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    Any chance of testing some LG's?
  14. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    I would if there was a local dealer selling them. Only place I can get them from is woodpellets.com and they don't sell by the bag. I asked for a sample so I could review them. They were not willing to provide them. So it probably will not happen this go round!
  15. MarkR

    MarkR New Member

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    Dear Jay,

    I appreciate the work you have put into this activity to provide pellet stove users with information regarding ash, fines, pellet size, and heat content. Wood pellet fuel to date is not regulated with respect to product quality standards. The Pellet Fuels Institute (“PFI”) has created a set of standards but it is self regulating and self policing by the individual manufacturers. PFI has initiated a standards compliance program but it has yet to be implemented.

    In regards to your heat content reporting, I offer up two comments. My first comment addresses the “Claimed BTU” by the individual manufacturers on your Comparison Chart. This is Heat Value in BTU per pound that the manufacturer claims. This can be a very misleading characteristic as there are two ways to report this value, and many manufacturers are confused about which method to use. The PFI Standard specifies an “As Received” value versus a “Moisture Free” value. Pellets with 5% moisture that have an “As Received” value of 8,000 BTU per pound will have a “Moisture Free” value of 8,400 BTU per pound. Many (most?) manufacturers report the “Moisture Free” value. We, at New England Wood Pellet, report the “As Received” value to be compliant with the PFI standards, and to more honestly reflect what the consumer experiences.

    The second comment addresses your test procedure for determining the Heat Average on your Comparison Chart. As Dougsey points out in Post #56 of this thread, longer pellets feed slower by weight into the burn pot when the auger speed is fixed such as at a fixed setting of “3” as your process is set up. Pellets with a size ranging from ¾” to 1” in length have a smaller weight in one rotation of the auger than pellets with a size ranging from ¼” to ½ “. Hence keeping your auger speed setting at “3” results in less pellets by weight for longer pellets than for smaller sized pellets. The less the weight the less available heat energy available, resulting in lower temperatures at the heat exchanger. Given the test setup, one cannot determine whether the temperature at the heat exchanger is due to the heat content of the pellet or the amount of wood delivered to the burn pot.

    Theoretically if two bags of pellets had the same heat value per pound, Bag A had longer pellets than Bag B, and the auger speed was fixed; Bag A would not burn as hot but would last longer as fewer pellets by weight were delivered to the burn pot. However, if the auger speed was adjustable to deliver the same amount of pellets by weight to the burn pot, the temperature at the burn pot would be the same for both bags and both bags would last the same amount of time.

    Case in point is our pellets from our two different plants. Based on extensive independent laboratory testing, the difference in heat value between the two plants is only about 150 BTU per pound on average: no where enough to account for the difference in heat (temperature at the heat exchanger) you measured between pellets from both our plants, 206 degrees versus 245 degrees. What I believe accounts for this difference in temperature is the average size difference of pellets between the two plants. We had been producing longer pellets at our Schuyler plant due to new and different pellet mill equipment we purchased for this new plant. We have recently made modifications to reduce our pellet size at Schuyler and believe the size issue is fully corrected.

    Again, we appreciate your efforts in supplying the consumers with pellet user information. I just wanted to point out that perhaps a better method could be employed to determine the real heat output of a 40 pound bag of pellets. Your method of a fixed auger speed should include how long a bag of pellets lasts for a given heat exchanger temperature. Alternatively adjust the auger speed to maintain a fixed temperature of say 250 degrees and measure how long a bag will last to maintain that temperature.

    Regards,
    Mark Wilson
    COO, New England Wood Pellet
  16. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Mr Wilson,

    Thank you for your comments. But this is more of what an average user would use to evaluate there fuel supply. Doing the testing you suggest would take away to much time from our busy life style. I personally can't sit by my stove to see how long a bag or two would last.

    The self policing PFI policy has not been in the consumers favor over the years. Finding 1 3/4 inch long pellets wasn't an issue for my stove. But I wonder how many people dealt with auger jams because of the excessive length issue you had. Along with other issues I have seen from other different brands with long length and excessive ash content! This is why I police my own purchase's due to some brands just dumping what ever they feel like on the market.

    I like my real world test and I hope many others do as well. Disregard my heat value if need be. But the other testing is right in the ball park. My ash reports would be on the light side if anything.

    Just trying to due my best.
    jay
  17. Meneillys

    Meneillys Feeling the Heat

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    I am hoping to use the results from the testing as a sales pitch for the Central New York area. We are getting a good responses from the new pellets but I all ready have customers that don't want the NEWP brand because of the issues they had this year. I am hoping to rebuild customer confidence with the results from the two bags shipped to jay and with the multi brand skid.
  18. ChandlerR

    ChandlerR Minister of Fire

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    Mark, I think what Jay is saying is that his results are what a consumer would see in real world applications. I understand what you are saying as far as the heat output per pound of the fuels but....in a typical household, the people do not weigh the pellets, they put them in the hopper and burn them. If the heat is low, they ramp up the feed rate. If it's too high, they turn the rate down. So, in a nutshell, Jay's testing reflects actual use. It is used as a benchmark, not scientific fact. I appreciate your comments and the fact that you watch these forums. It can only help your company in the long run. The fact that you've adjusted your production machinery to improve the product is a testement to the commitment of your company to customer satisfaction.
    Keep up the good work and you will be rewarded in loyal customers.

    Chan
  19. newf lover

    newf lover Minister of Fire

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    My guess is that the vast majority of us enjoy Jay posting these results, and use them to either validate our own experience with the pellets we're using, or help us decide what ones we may want to try. We know that what may burn well in Jay's stove may not burn well in ours, or we may have a good experience with a brand that did not get good results according to the test. Since I'm not the one continually burning pellets and cleaning my stove, this is fun! I do not measure the heat output of my stove, and honestly haven't noticed a great deal of difference in the brands I've burned. I do pay attention to the ash and Jay is right on with his results as far as how much ash the different brands produce. It is good to see producers taking a look on this forum. You can see how a good reputation and product can spread throughout a forum and help sales, as well as problems a producer may have that they choose to ignore will hurt them.
  20. MarkR

    MarkR New Member

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    Jay,

    As I mentioned in my first posting that we appreciate your time and effort in providing this service to pellet stove users as I am sure you have other things to do everyday both personally and vocationally. And I agree that the other testing is right in the ballpark with regard to ash, fines, and pellet length. I just wanted to point out to the audience that when comparing heat value of different brands of pellets (or even different bags of the same brand) that one must take into account the amount of pellets that the auger is transferring into the burn pot and that the amount will vary based on pellet size. That is why the the stove has the auger rate adjustment.

    And NEWP also appreciates the fact that you took on testing our pellets from our more established NH plant, and that you are planning on testing a new lot from our Schuyler, NY plant. We believe we had produced a good pellet at our Schuyler, NY plant over the last two years since its inception but we also acknowledge that we had instances of long pellets produced that were longer than the acceptable standard which we have rectified with some mechanical redesign of our screening process. In addition, our Schuyler, NY plant produced pellets that were within the PFI standards in length but were longer than what we traditionally produce in our NH plant. We have recently redesigned/customized part of our pellet mills to reduce the length to 1) address issues that some customers have with pellet lengths even though they meet the standards, and 2) address the amount of pellets fed via the auger to the burn pot as this has led consumers to perceive that the heat value was defficient.

    Chan,

    We appreciate your positive feedback as we do honestly care. We spend a lot of time and money to continually improve our business and to further the awareness and value of this industry as a whole.

    Regards,

    Mark
  21. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Mark, I will buy some of the length issue as lack of heat produced. But I also tested the WPCo. brand and they had length issue's as well. But there heat in my stove was higher. I think that is also due to the quality of the fiber used. Maybe if a large percentage of the bag was extremly long there may have been an issue, But that also would have put you out of PFI spec. Glad its fixed anyway.

    I will gladly retest your product again. But in all fairness, I didn't give any of the other brands a retest. If the products were not provided by a couple of loyal NEWP dealers. There would have been no retest. I don't want to be a hard critic. But the cost of pellets has made me look at them more criticle than before. I need to purchase the best I can for the money I spend. I don't care what brand it is. If they don't cut it? I am just posting my results. I guess I can't please everyone. My disclaimer already states that these are for my comparision and Your milage may very!

    The NEWP sample is on the door step. I will try to get them in the stove ASAP. Thank you for the donation Meneilly’s Woodland Products. In your sales pitch could I at least get some credit for all my hard work. There seems to be a lot of people using this as a sales pitch. With Mark's comments and insight. Maybe all of you should stick to his or there "lab" results instead of my meaningless testing. Remember I am just a smuck texting pellets in his basement!
  22. ChandlerR

    ChandlerR Minister of Fire

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    Jay, you may say you're a shmuck...but you're OUR schmuck :) You've got nothing to prove and no affiliation to any one company. I'll take your "real world" testing any day.

    Chan
  23. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Thanks Chan,

    Its a total honor to be a Your schmuch! I promised honest results and thats what I will provide. My only affiliate is a warm house heated with the best pellet I can afford!

    I do like this free heat though. :) :) :)
    jay
  24. ChandlerR

    ChandlerR Minister of Fire

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    LOL! I bet you do...but it's not really free...A lot of work goes into it!
  25. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    SHHH! don't remind me! I'll think its like work again.

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