Pellet Stove Payback Period?

[gglater]

Chuck...how do you like your Accentra and how much do you heat with it?

Love it!

My house is a 24'x36' garrison colonial, built in 1994, with 6" walls. 1800sq ft if you measure from the outside dimensions...more like 1600 if you measure the interior room sizes. open floor plan on the first floor; 3 bedrooms upstairs.
The stove is capable of heating the entire house, and it does, most of the time. I've taken to letting the oil furnace run in the morning for a little while, just to keep the basement from getting too cold...although, the furnace crapped out over the weekend, and we had 0-degree weather...no problems. Last oil fill-up was in November of '08, and I still have half a tank.

electric bill for Dec 2009: $196.38

electric bill for Dec 2008: $585.87

cost of pellets burned: 34 bags @ $5.40/bag: 5.4 * 34= $183.6

Total cost of elec + heat for Dec 200= $379.98

Savings over last year: $205.89

Cost of Stove = ~$4300 - 30% tax credit = $3010

$3010 - 205.89 = ($2804.11) ROI

 

[gglater]

Chuck...how do you like your Accentra and how much do you heat with it?

Love it!

My house is a 24'x36' garrison colonial, built in 1994, with 6" walls. 1800sq ft if you measure from the outside dimensions...more like 1600 if you measure the interior room sizes. open floor plan on the first floor; 3 bedrooms upstairs.
The stove is capable of heating the entire house, and it does, most of the time. I've taken to letting the oil furnace run in the morning for a little while, just to keep the basement from getting too cold...although, the furnace crapped out over the weekend, and we had 0-degree weather...no problems. Last oil fill-up was in November of '08, and I still have half a tank.

My house is almost the same size as described above (1407 square feet garrison colonial) located about 20 miles west of Boston, MA. We have a Lopi Yankee Bay that heats the whole house (installed Nov 2009).

We just got through our first full month of using the stove instead of the ELECTRIC heat. Here is the number crunching that I did (back of envelope type...)

electric bill for Dec 2009: $196.38 (with stove)

electric bill for Dec 2008: $585.87 (pre stove)

cost of pellets burned: 34 bags @ $5.40/bag: 5.4 * 34= $183.60

Total cost of elec + heat for Dec 2010= $379.98

Savings over last year: $205.89

Cost of Stove = ~$4300 - 30% tax credit = $3010

$3010 - 205.89 = ($2804.11) ROI

 

[cac4]

well..I don't understand your ROI calculation, but if you ask me...you're saving ~200/month on heat, for a 6 month heating season, thats 1200/year and thats "payback" in <3.

I won't see that, w/ pellets vs. oil...then again, we won't know until it happens. oil being so variable, its really impossible to say "exactly". but when I bought my stove, oil was >$4/gallon, and at that rate, I'd have had a 2 year payback. as it stands now...maybe 5 years ? I'm replacing 600gallons of oil, with about 3 tons of pellets...plus a little oil.

 

[gglater]

my ROI number was simply this:

Cost of stove - tax credit - (Dec 2008 elect. cost - (Dec 2009 elect. cost + Dec 2009 pellets used cost)) = amount I paid for the stove that I haven't recovered as savings yet.

At least I think that's what I did.

And where I said 2010 in my earlier posting, I meant 2009.

--glen

 

[ablejoy]

Second season using our stove, first season last year we cut propane usage in half. propane went from $1.90 a gallon in November 2009 to $2.50 a gallon this month. We like the heat were able to afford with the stove we keep the main part of our house at 72 degrees with propane never got over 65 degrees during the day. Last year used 2 tons from Oct -early April. I just add bag number 68, cost $186.00 so far propane maybe $50.00 or so. Propane as high as $2.80 a gallon 2009. I figure were saving about $1000.00 a year on propane.

 

[Ken45]

A pellet stove dumps 100% of the heat it creates into your living space. no loss.

Hold your hand over the outside exhaust pipe and tell me that all the heat went into the living space :roll:

You are right, a pellet stove heats the area it's in and there is no loss in "transporting" the heat as long as you want the heat in the room the stove is in. Of course, that "lost" heat from the ducts does heat the house to a certain extent.

We only use ours on a very low setting to add a bit of heat to the living room in the evening. It's room heater, not a very efficient house heater.

For the situation that you are in with a heat pump and cold nights, you might consider an unvented gas (propane) stove. They are 99.9% efficient, all the heat remains in the house. They are a lot less expensive than a pellet stove to purchase and install.

In 1999, we built a new two story 3000 sf home. First winter (it was cold), we heated with the central propane furnace. It cost us over $3000 that winter. The next winter, (which was not as cold), we heated exclusively with an unvented propane fireplace. It cost us $400 to heat the house.

We are now in a smaller home, primarily heating with wood. We tried a pellet stove and were not warm or happy. Wood is the best, in our opinion. The heat pump is used when it's above 50 degrees.

Ken

 

[cac4]

A pellet stove dumps 100% of the heat it creates into your living space. no loss.

Hold your hand over the outside exhaust pipe and tell me that all the heat went into the living space :roll:

I meant "useable" heat. please don't take my comments out of context.

It's room heater, not a very efficient house heater.

It IS a very efficient house heater, in the right house. MY house stays quite comfortable, and I consume 25% less energy (btu's) doing it this way.
It may be impractical in your application; that doesn't make it "inefficient".

 

[QuadraBurner]

My stove paid for itself when the wife told me it was actually too hot in our house, and I had to turn the stove down. For the record, my stove easily heats my entire house (1800 sqft, two floors). Like others have said though, it depends on the house. I keep the thermostat on 73 or 74 in my house, which is fairly open, but my buddy who also has an AE needs to keep his at 78 to get enough heat to all of the rooms in his house. As with anything, your mileage may vary.

As for actual payback, which is what the OP was looking for, I think I will be ahead slightly this year but not much. What I do have going for me though is a WARM house, and options. If oil goes up like it did last year I will see the payback much quicker. On the other hand, if pellets skyrocketed for some reason, I can go back to oil.

 

[gutterboy2ca]

ovenovenfire, don,t hesitate on purchasing a good used stove if you run across one,when i bought in Oct of 08, there were no stoves to be had,all dealers were sold out till Feb 09,so i bought a 10 year old Enviro, was there in shop demo,stamped july/99.I was kinda scared to buy it, but already bought a ton of Pellets before finding a stove.They offered me 1 year factory warranty, which made the deal for me $1300 for a $2895 stove, I did End up putting in a new Timer switch for $80(not warrantied) and the Blower fan started to squeal(they gave me a new one) $250,so i haven,t regretted it at all.As for savings here in Eastern canada, only been about $400/season or 1 month Electric Bill, so 3 years should just about equal out what we paid for it..

 

[THE ROOSTER]

First off, seek out the fool that talked you into heat pumps in Virginia!! Their efficiency goes to crap at about 40F. When you are using the cost comparison, plug in 100% efficiency for the heat pump since your using the strip heaters. You are NOT getting heat pump efficiency! I live in Georgia,a nd heat pumps down here this winter have been useless the last three weeks. I can imagine in VA>

Don't know the age of your heat pump(s) but I too have heat pumps but in Central Kentucky and love them... I have two Carrier Infinity heat pumps ( efficent to 5*F) installed in Nov 07 and only once have I seen the computer shut them off and go strictly to heat strips... Not much difference in KY. and Va. if you ask me, what I would ask is how much do you pay for a Kilowatt of electricity??? Here KU charges $.05/kil and after all BS taxes are included it is $.07/kil

 

[MCPO]

First off, seek out the fool that talked you into heat pumps in Virginia!! Their efficiency goes to crap at about 40F. When you are using the cost comparison, plug in 100% efficiency for the heat pump since your using the strip heaters. You are NOT getting heat pump efficiency! I live in Georgia,a nd heat pumps down here this winter have been useless the last three weeks. I can imagine in VA>

Don't know the age of your heat pump(s) but I too have heat pumps but in Central Kentucky and love them... I have two Carrier Infinity heat pumps ( efficent to 5*F) installed in Nov 07 and only once have I seen the computer shut them off and go strictly to heat strips... Not much difference in KY. and Va. if you ask me, what I would ask is how much do you pay for a Kilowatt of electricity??? Here KU charges $.05/kil and after all BS taxes are included it is $.07/kil

Lucky guy you are! Where I`m at it`s closer to .18 KWHR.

 

[ovenovenfire]

my heat pumps are 6 months old (American Standard, I forget what model) but are only 13 SEER / 7.7 HSPF which is on the lower end of the efficiency scale so once it goes below 20-25 outside, the air blowing out of the ducts drops to the upper 70s and that barely keeps the house warm. I have reprogrammed my thermostat to not use the auxiliary (heat strips) heat unless the temperature drops 4 degrees below the setpoint to save money. Otherwise I noticed the emergency heat was kicking in all the time. It was quite chilly in the house (around 65) and it was bearable with a couple of space heaters during the recent cold snap. However, the upstairs of the house stayed comfortable; it was the downstairs that was cold (go figure).

My rate is 11 cents/kWh with taxes and all so that's why I was wondering about the payback. I guess I should not complain too much, at the current rate my electric bill for the month is going to be about $250, up from $190 last month (Dec) and 100 in October when the heating or cooling was hardly used. So heating the house is costing $100-150 extra per month during the months of Nov-March. Now that the bad cold is over I think I'll wait before I plop down the cash for a stove but I do think I may make the leap next year as there is talk that electric rates will go up.

I'll look into a ventless propane heater. Doesn't that make a sticky residue all over the house because the fumes are not vented outside? I regret not buying a house within city limits. We had natural gas last year and it was warm!

 

[tjnamtiw]

[

Don't know the age of your heat pump(s) but I too have heat pumps but in Central Kentucky and love them... I have two Carrier Infinity heat pumps ( efficent to 5*F) installed in Nov 07 and only once have I seen the computer shut them off and go strictly to heat strips... Not much difference in KY. and Va. if you ask me, what I would ask is how much do you pay for a Kilowatt of electricity??? Here KU charges $.05/kil and after all BS taxes are included it is $.07/kil

First, there's no sense getting into a verbal argument about efficiencies but............... I have 14.5 SEER 8.5 HSPF (?) heat pumps and I can fart hotter air than they put out at 32 degrees. 5 degrees with no heat strips is fantasy. My total charge is $0.13 per KWH. Google all day and you won't find anything except geothermal that performs at 5 degrees. If it does, I'm changing!!

 

[THE ROOSTER]

[

Don't know the age of your heat pump(s) but I too have heat pumps but in Central Kentucky and love them... I have two Carrier Infinity heat pumps ( efficent to 5*F) installed in Nov 07 and only once have I seen the computer shut them off and go strictly to heat strips... Not much difference in KY. and Va. if you ask me, what I would ask is how much do you pay for a Kilowatt of electricity??? Here KU charges $.05/kil and after all BS taxes are included it is $.07/kil

First, there's no sense getting into a verbal argument about efficiencies but............... I have 14.5 SEER 8.5 HSPF (?) heat pumps and I can fart hotter air than they put out at 32 degrees. 5 degrees with no heat strips is fantasy. My total charge is $0.13 per KWH. Google all day and you won't find anything except geothermal that performs at 5 degrees. If it does, I'm changing!!

My 3.5 ton Carrier Infinity 19 SEER, has a 3 stage heat strip system, and is efficient to 5* I didn't say 100%, and I heat/cool 3200 square feet, and my electric bills are 149.00 or less... I would seriously be considering a new heat pump if at 32* yours is putting out cold air, heck I don't even consider firing up my Harman until we go into the 20's...Post pictures when your new heat pump is installed

OH, parents have geothermal, I'm always 20-30 bucks cheaper every bill in the winter, and he beats me close to the same amount in the summer...

One last thing, SEER I thought only delt with cooling... It's been a while since I read up on this so I might be mistaken

 

[Trickyrick]

Just put in a Harmon Accentra insert in in Nov. Total cost was $4380- 1500 rebate = 2880 Wife likes the looks and I wanted a pellet stove I got my choice of 1 option.

So November 09 electric bill came in at $199.07. November 08 electric bill was $396. If I used todays electric rates and last years usage it woudl have been $409
November 09 burned 19 bags of pellets at $5.00 per bag or ($95)


Total bill 2008 = $409 Total bill 2009 = $294. Savings = $115.

If the ratio stays the same through the rest of the heating season I should save between $600 and $800 per year depending on actual temperatures.

If I use and average of 700 the I have a 4.1 year payback. While this is not normally acceptable. I can also add in the comfort level of the in the new house temp of 72-74 depending on where in the house you are VS the old temp of 68 and always hearing the complaining about he house being too cold.

That being the case where the temps drop below about 15* the pellet stove can hold the temp well but you can not expect a 35,000 to 60,000 BTU appliance to raise temperature the same way your 140,000 BTU heating system can do it today. I have found that while I chock the stove back 3 to 4 degrees when I'm not home anyhting more than that creates an unacceptable lag period that causes the wife to "turn up the heat" which defeats the purpose of the stove...

You need to start with figuring out how much heat you need in your home. With electric it was easy for me because I calculated average BTU usage based on my last 3 years heating bill. Then from there you can make an intelligent estimate of how many BTUs you need and then double it. that is a good starting point for stoves. I needed 23,000 so I got a stove that burns 40,000. Yes I know the output to the house at full out is only 35 ish but I have yet to actually let the stove run at that level... Based on my usage my worst day this year was just under 80 pounds of pellets (2 bags) which is what, burning 26-27K BTU per hour. That was a day of -4 plus 30 MPH wind at night and 10 with wind all day.... It took over two hours to recover back to 73 when I got home from 69.

 

[tjnamtiw]

[
My 3.5 ton Carrier Infinity 19 SEER, has a 3 stage heat strip system, and is efficient to 5* I didn't say 100%, and I heat/cool 3200 square feet, and my electric bills are 149.00 or less... I would seriously be considering a new heat pump if at 32* yours is putting out cold air, heck I don't even consider firing up my Harman until we go into the 20's...Post pictures when your new heat pump is installed

OH, parents have geothermal, I'm always 20-30 bucks cheaper every bill in the winter, and he beats me close to the same amount in the summer...

One last thing, SEER I thought only delt with cooling... It's been a while since I read up on this so I might be mistaken

Yes, SEER is strictly cooling. It's the HSPF (or something like that that concerns heating). With your extremely low electric cost (Obama's Cap and Trade will take care of that), you can afford to use the heat strips. 19 SEER is awesome but out of my budget. If it is efficient down to 5 degrees, why are you using a pellet stove at all? $149 electric bill for a 3200 sq ft house is amazing. I use more than that for my refrigerators, cooking range, clothes dryer, and water heater! I would guess you have natural gas for everything else (not available in my rural neighborhood). How much did that heat pump cost, just out of curiosity? 5 degrees with no heat strips on - still amazing to me.

 

[webbie]

In the old days we used COP. That figures gave you the approx. number of times greater than the electric in - that went out in BTU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

Here in northern climes, heat pumps are almost non-existent. We just went about 10 days with temps below freezing, often quite far. Besides that, we pay about 16-17 cents per KWH. Natural gas tends to be the cheapest fossil fuel in these parts.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Yea, you're right, Craig. COP is a clearer way of looking at it for me. A COP of 3 means it is 300% more efficient than resistance heaters. That COP drops as the outside temperature drops until, in most cases, at about freezing, the COP is 1, which as you say will kill you if your electric rates are high. That Carrier unit must be something really special and the house must be super insulated unlike the 'redneck' built homes down south where I live.

 

[agrossm]

This post intrigued me, so I just ran some rough numbers using this calculator:

www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

I only calculated my first floor system, I contracted 1000gals of propane at $1.45 and my electricty rate is $.11/kwh.

Heat Pump @ 8 HPSF = $14.59/MBTU
80% Furnace = $20.35/MBTU
Pellet Stove @ 78% $250/ton = $19.43/MBTU

I usually only fire up the stove when I'm on my LP Furnace below 38* OAT. So, it looks like I'm not saving a whole lot of money, but the 1st flr being so warm is priceless. Plus, the stove puts my wife to sleep on the couch so I get to watch whatever I want to on TV. ;-)

As an aside, the LP Company came to fill the tank again last week, my wife happened to be home and said they weren't here nearly as long as they usually are. Haven't gotten the invoice as of yet, but from Sept. to Dec. the tank went from 80% to about 68%. I know its not an accurate reading but consider I have a 1000gal tank so that's only about 120gals. WOW! Years past, before the heat pump and stove, we were at 1000gals/year including domestic hot water.

 

[ovenovenfire]

some people have mentioned storage of pellets. I don't have a big shed and it's already full with garden tools. My basement while big enough, however it is a little damp (musty smell and you sometimes get a small puddle when it rains very hard), especially in the summer. Would this be an issue? Would it be OK to just store the pellets on a pallet or would I have to plop down money and electricity for a dehumidifer?

 

[Trickyrick]

Garage works well for storage. The bags of pellets are NOT waterproof. Some even have micro holes in them. They do eventually reach equilibrium with their surroundings. I woudl say standing water is a BAD thing.

It sounds like to me there are more efficient ways to gain savings with your money. Standing water ina basement is a no-no. If you have that after a rain storm then there are issues there that need to be adressed.

I can't help but wonder if your $3,000 might be better invested in efficiency, (read insulation/windows/doors) first. One of the things that many new pellet users forget is that we are heating up a space. If we just let the hot air out then what is the use. I have found that unless your up to 2X6 wall with R-24 and a celling with R50 and Floor with at least R30 ten you will get a better return on investment in insulating than just about anythign else (except perhaps replacing a 30 year old furnace).

Again the best way to figure this out is to measure the insulation and to record your energy usage.

I do so love my stove, and woudln't trade it for any other heat source for the house.

 

[gglater]

Update with January's numbers...

electric bill for Jan 2010: $188.59

electric bill for Jan 2009: $650.71


cost of pellets burned: 37 bags @ $5.40/bag: 5.4 * 37= $199.80

Total cost of elec + heat for Jan 2010= $388.39


Savings over last year: $262.32

 

[Estarrio]

I bought my house in 2007. It is a split level with a finished basement. However, the oil furnace is only rigged to heat the upstairs. The previous owners had placed an electric stove on a nice hearth pad in the unfinished basement. I quickly learned that the electric stove did nothing and ran out and bought a pellet stove.

Unfortunately, I'll never know what my oil usage would have been. Either way, it wouldn't have kept my downstairs warm.

I grew up with woodstoves, so for me the ambiance of a fire compensates for the hassle of moving/storing pellets and cleaning the stove. Beats messing with six cords of wood per season and scrounging for brush in the winter.

My guess is that my pellet stove would have paid for itself if oil prices remained relatively high after five years or so. I added a second insert this year, so that likely negates the financial ROI.

However, I'm comfortable and I don't have to deal with the oil company. I'm very happy with my decision to go with pellet heat. I just wish I would have bought an Enviro insert instead of a St Croix. Perhaps I'll get all the kinks worked out.

 

[terryjd98]

I bought a floor model never used, burned in Enviro Evolution in the late summer of 2008 when oil prices were so high and my projected heating cost using oil would be $4,500.00. Stove plus pipe, thimble was total cost of $2800.00. 3 tons of pellets $819.00. I planned to do the install myself. Had some unexpected health problems and never got the install done. The usual amount I spend on oil for a season is between $2500 to $3000.00 to heat my old house with a 10 year old additon total of about 1800 sq ft. 2 story. Just depending how cold of winter we have up here.
So now all better I finally got the stove installed, Building inspecter Wett inspected on Jan. 27th 2010. All I can say is WOW. What a great heat. Not as good as the woodstove I grew up with on the farm but sure does take the dampness out of the house better then oil. Heats the room its in around to 74 -78 degrees with outside night temps around 0F daytime 20s, stove on 3 out of 5, one night had to use 4 setting. Downstairs stays around 68 to 70, Upstairs stay around 68, 66 if wind is blowing hard. basement which is not used for living use around 40.
Up to this point this year I had used $900.00 in oil. Since I have started the Pellet stove the only time the furnace has came on is when I shut the stove off for an hour then do a cleaning. Have furnace thermostat set at 50, its just a backup now to pellet stove. I never expected stove to heat whole house but it is and only on a 3 setting.
So from what friends have told me, what I have read on here, the pellets I have used so far for the temps I figure 4 tons for the heating season plus a little bit maybe. So say $1100.00 for pellets, $400.00 for oil at most, so $1,500.00 a year. The low for oil I pay now a year $2500.00 - $1500.00 = $1,000.00. This would work out to a payback for the stove and pipe at 3 years, 4 at the most. Even if I used 5 tons of pellets then I would have used more oil without the Pellet stove so savings are still going to average $1000.00.
Like most on here is sounds like depending on your ceremstances on how fast your payback will be. I think the fastest paybacks are in older drafty houses which are real killers on central heating systems. Or maybe the farther north a person is the faster the payback. Also dpends what you heat with in the first place to be able to cmpare costs.
I can just say for sure I love my pellet stove, payback should be fast enough to suite me and the dampness that is out of the house is great and I dont mind that little bit of work.

 

[DBCOOPER]

First off, seek out the fool that talked you into heat pumps in Virginia!! ...

I'm in Pa. Have a 10 yr old heat pump, 2.5 ton heating about 1300 sf and it does a pretty good job down to about 25 degrees.