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Pic of inside my masonry chimney. Do I have a lot of Creosote?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by NewtownPA, Oct 11, 2007.

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  1. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    I can't say for sure if that 304 product is certified I did not see a UL listing I also would recommend the liner to be 316 ti

    also when pricing it out at 25' its $625 I think you can get a complete kit including a 25 ft 316ti coil, termination cap ,vent collar, and top plate, for $200 or more less that this price

    Others here can point you to alternative kits they have had success purchasing and installing We also have a manufactures rep on the forum Magnaflex

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  2. MrGriz

    MrGriz New Member

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    That is definitely not a set up I would want to burn "as is" this winter. As suggested, I would line the chimney and install a block off plate. There may be some debate as to whether or not the liner is an absolute necessity or if the direct connect method you have (with the addition of a proper block off plate) would be sufficient.

    The full liner will draft better, giving you better stove performance and more efficient use of your wood. It will also help to direct all flue gasses up and out of the living space. As you can see now, there is ample opportunity for gasses to back up past the insulation and enter your living space; possibly causing a deadly situation. The liner will also help to contain a chimney fire in the worst case scenario.

    Sealing the liner at the top of the flue and the damper will also help greatly. This creates a dead air space and provides a buffer against heat loss up the chimney. I would bet that in addition to the increase in safety, you will notice better heat output with a block off plate. The block off also keeps flue gasses from backing up into the living space. There is a good article in the wiki section on the construction and installation of a block off plate. It is basically a metal plate that seals the damper opening, around the liner. It is typically made in two or three pieces and cemented or caulked into place, since it's much easier to do in pieces. For added insulation, you can use high temperature insulation on top of the plate (not fiberglass insulation).

    If you're a DIY'er, you should be able to handle all of this on your own in order to save a few bucks and ensure that the job is done right.
  3. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    We all can give you pieces of the puzzle but I would suggest that you download this copy of the Ranier insert installation and operation manual and step by step follow the installation instructions for the safe and approved installation of the stove just like it was new and to be installed.

    http://www.avalonstoves.com/TravisDocs/100-01140.pdf
  4. NewtownPA

    NewtownPA New Member

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    Would a non-insulated liner be fine for me if I am going to line it all the way to the top (since it is inside the masonry chimney)? (sort of like that pic on this page that shows the flex lining)?
  5. MrGriz

    MrGriz New Member

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    Is your chimney on an exterior wall?

    Many people recomend an insulated liner and in some cases it is required (if the integrity of your chimney is compromised). It can help with draft on exterior chimneys or short runs.

    That being said, I have an exterior chimney that is roughly 23' high and the liner in mine is not insulated. My set up drafts well and I have had no issues. My chimney was also in sound condition beforre I lined it.

    How's that for a non-answer answer ;-)
  6. Mike Wilson

    Mike Wilson New Member

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    1- If you are handy and don't mind climbing your roof, and have 1 or 2 like minded friends, you can save a bundle and do it yourself. Get a liner from e-bay and install that. You can use regular flex liner, it will work fine, and cost about 400 bucks

    2- Its 2 halves of the same plate, the left half, and the right half. They each have a semicircular cutout on one side to go around the liner that will run past your damper.

    -- Mike
  7. NewtownPA

    NewtownPA New Member

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    MrGriz

    Here is a photo of the outside of the house. The chimney goes up the outside of the house at the top and enters the garage. So it's sort of half outside.

    Attached Files:

  8. philaphire

    philaphire Member

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    for many of us at the end of the day it's an economic decision - what all can you afford and what all can you do on your own? Mike is right - if you can do it yourself you will save a lot. Liner kits are around $400 online and insulation another $200. The 24 gauge sheet metal piece I got at the hardware store to make my block off plate was $1.59.

    One way to look at whether or not to insulate is that whatever you do you will be improving and your current situation and be thankful that no harm was done!
  9. NewtownPA

    NewtownPA New Member

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    I have been on my roof. I don't like it much, but I've done it several times when I have to. It's finding "like-minded" folks that's the hard part.

    Thanks for explaining the plate. I now understand why it's two pieces. :)
  10. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

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    What are the inside dimensions of your flue. It looks like a standard 8"x 12" clay tile which make the inside diameter about 6.5"x 10.5". So it would be difficult to install a liner with insulation. It would probably tare on the way down from morter and offset tiles. I think you'd be fine without insulation, I have an outside chimney and no insulation on my liner, draft is too good sometimes. Another option is to stuff insulation around the top couple feet to help keep the chimney warm.
  11. NewtownPA

    NewtownPA New Member

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    I have not actually measured it. I really need to do that.

    What sort of insulation should I use if I was to put some around the top part? (not fiberglass, right?)
  12. philaphire

    philaphire Member

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    In terms of what sort of insulation, ceramic fiber fireproof insulation runs around $15/foot and that's what you would use - most stove shops carry it.

    HOWEVER, the problem with just "stuffing insulation" at the top is how can you insure that it will stay in place? Wouldn't it just slide down over time? Some sort of shelf would have to be in place OR the insulation would need to be attached to the liner via clamps or adhesive - just like you would if you insulated the entire liner.... not saying you should/shouldn't insulate, just wondering how well that would work....
  13. woodconvert

    woodconvert Minister of Fire

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    Lemme start by saying i'm no expert....but for some time i've been putting 20-27 face per year through a Yotul Firelite. I've got a masonry chimney similar to yours (mine looks to be a bit taller). First, no, that wasn't much creosote BUT, when creosote ignites it grows like those old "snake" fireworks. A little bit can choke off a section of your chimney if it catches on fire. Second, the tiles appear fine. All the masonry chimney's i've looked down have the "steps" where it may look like the tiles shifted. Third, your connection from the stove to the chimney would creep me out. I would fix that.

    As for the insulated liner...If you burn 24/7 for the season then it's not necessary but if you only burn part time it would be a good idea. A masonry chimney needs to be hot for draft and avoiding creosote problems. If you are burning 24/7 then keeping the chimney hot isn't a problem. When you burn periodically it takes a lot of wood just to heat the chimney and get er' drafting...it would be easier to get a draft going with the liner.
  14. NewtownPA

    NewtownPA New Member

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    What can I do to fix that? How would I connect the oval to the round outlet on top of the stove? (I'm a newbie - but I'm "handy" with tools etc.).

    I assume that since they use oval liner there isn't enough space for a full 6" round liner through the damper - how do I overcome this problem? I'd like to have all round liner if possible.

    I would like to be burning wood at least 16 - 18 hours a day every day.
  15. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    The top five feet of both of my chimneys are packed with Rockwool insulatation. You use large pieces and pack them in with something like a broom handle and they pack in really tight. I pulled the top plates this year to do some work and the insulation hadn't moved an inch in either one of the flues. The stuff is really dense.

    But be sure and wear a mask working with that stuff. It is nothing but zillions of short fibers and you do not want it in your lungs. And you just as well throw the shirt away when you get done.
  16. philaphire

    philaphire Member

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    Newtown, you're going to have to cut the damper to get a round through - many posts on here with different experiences. Mine was easy with a sawzall. Brother Bart used a hacksaw. Others have used angle grinders. If you buy a liner kit, it will come with a connection that will sit inside the collar - 3 self tapping sheet metal screws in the collar holes and furnance cement to seal the deal and you'll be up and running.
  17. philaphire

    philaphire Member

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    thanks for "real world" clarification!
  18. Metal

    Metal Minister of Fire

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    I don't know that a liner is absolutely necessary. If you add a blockoff plate and make sure the connection to the stove is tight you should be okay. You might also need to look into a hearth extension (per picture on first page).
  19. NewtownPA

    NewtownPA New Member

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    Do you think the existing connection is ok as long as it's tight? Is it a concern that the connection sleeve is internal to the outlet instead of external?
  20. Metal

    Metal Minister of Fire

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    It just needs to line up straight and be pushed in all the way (so you can't see the crimps). I believe in an earlier post you said it was at that angle because the stove was pulled out. If it lines up and inserts all the way when the stove is inserted, you should be okay (you still should add a block off plate though). A liner would help with creosote buildup, but yours doesn't look that bad to me and it may be caused by other factors (low temp fires, wet wood, etc.). This is just my opinion, and as you have read, there are plenty of them here, so it will be up to you how you decide to fix it. You didn't say anything about draft problems though so I take it that is okay.
  21. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    I just hope that we agree that that insulation needs to be pulled out and the creosote that guy probably just brushed down on top of it and the smoke shelf be removed.
  22. NewtownPA

    NewtownPA New Member

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    Correct. They did not remove that insulation during the cleaning process. They brushed the creosote down onto the top of the insulation.

    As the old saying goes "If you want something done right, do it yourself." A forum like this with people like you all are much better for my health and safety than those "Professional" cleaners.

    I will be researching how to build a block off plate. I think it's very important for the time being.
  23. bruce56bb

    bruce56bb New Member

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  24. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    22 years ago I hired a pair of sweeps with their cute top hats to come out and pull my insert and liner and sweep the chimney. Same experience as yours. I ended up going to town, getting brushes and redoing the job. Done it myself every since then.
  25. NewtownPA

    NewtownPA New Member

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    Well I think 22 years later you are seeing a repeat of history. :)

    I'm determined to have a SAFE and HAPPY home.
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