Plumbing Help !!- 3 toilets dont flush - stack issue? Sorry for the long post.

[daveswoodhauler]

Ok, so the rotorooter man came out and was stumped.....didn't want to call them and wanted to wait for our normal plumber, but having guests in a few days and need some help.
Some background:
2 Story colonial - built in 1999
3 bathrooms....1 half down stairs, and 2 full upstairs
Problem started during a snowstorm///wet heavy stuff then followed by rain.
Noticed one toilet upstairs wasn't flushing right...no biggie, I have 3 young boys who like to use a lot of toilet paper.
Tried to plunge it no avail...waited until next morning and still no luck. Went to home depot and got a 3 ft snake and plunged it.....flushed...still no luck....WTF????
So, went downstairs and my wife told me that the other toilet was acting odd...went to flush it, and it was a half azzed flush...that s wierd....snaked it....flushed fine 2 times, then another half azzed flush.
Went to bathroom number #3 upstairs, and flushed with nothing it it...and it barely went down....not clogged...just real, real slow to drain.....I'm thinking somesort of air issue or major blockage.
Came home from work tonight, and was just pissed off as I have three toilets that dont want to flush...and cant figure it out...sometimes they flush and sometimes they dont......was going to open upthe main line in the basement, but didn't want a cascade of shat falling on me if the pipes were blocked all the way up....so, the Mrs's gave me the look...."maybe you should call a plumber...like rotorooter"...arrrrggghhhh...so I call and they show up at 10:00pm tonight.
So, he looks over everything...nice guy from Georgia.....go figure here in Mass
Anyway, first thing he checks is the main trap......opens it up, and it is clear with a nice pitch to the septic.....ok there.
Next he checks is a main sewer line that runs the length of the back of the house....opens it up...pops off the cap, and no drip.....lookie inside and it is clear for the 25 ft run.
Next we go to the 1st floor bathroom.....takes out the 6ft auger and rooters it...flushes once, then the second flush is chitty again.
Move upstairs....augers the boys bathroom, and flushes...flushes ok first, but next time is not good....like there is negative pressure or something.
Move to the master bath where the problem originated.....10 year old toilet, and the auger can't make it through all the curves and my bud from Georgia leaves for the night.
So, being an anal bastard like I am...decide to take the toilet off at 11:00pm and pull the toilet off to find the blockage.....no blockage at the end of the flange where I ususally find one of my boys presents....and the trap/drain looks clear.....so, I go downstairs, and grab my 50 ft snake....and start snaking the toilet drain on the 2nd floor...goes down about half way and then I realize its not a clog in the line.
My best guess is, is that the stack pipe on the roof is partially clogged with ice or snow, however, the snow never reached the top of the stack, and right now it is a good 1 1/2 ft below the stack....what I am guessing that all the freaking freezing rain we had probably got into the stack and froze...so I guess I have a partial blockage? (Again, 1 out of every 4 or 5 flushes work fine....and there is no way I have 3 toilets clogged)
So, right now I have the access door to the attic open to let some heat up there and perhaps thaw the stack?Or perhaps some critters dumped some crap down the stack? (I don't have any trees around the house....and the trees that are there are pines about 80-100 feet away.....so I am guessing I have an ice buildup in the trap?
So, I head up to the attic, and it looks to be a 4" vent pipe?
Should I cut a small portion out, perhaps a 12" section and take a peek up/down to find a blockage? (going on the roof is not an option with the pitch/snow/and a good friend now in a wheelchair due to the fall from a ladder)
Just don't know what to do at this point....I am really out of ideas.
Going to sign off now...go down stairs and grab homebrew even through they are not ready as they have only been carbonating for 3 days or so,......I don't care if its flat.....I hate not being able to not fix stuff.....sorry for the rant.
Edit - We have septic and the tank is 15 feet from the house...tank was pumped 2 months ago and the line from inside the basement to the tank is clear.

 

[begreen]

Frozen vent(s) sounds plausible from the description. Never heard of this before, but there's always a first time. Freeing it up should have dramatic results. There should be no trap on the vents that I know of. Just a straight pipe.

 

[Shari]

Well, if I were you I wouldn't cut into that vent - you never know what kind of fumes you could be exposing yourself and your family to (methane gas???).

Kind of does sound like the vent is clogged somehow though....

 

[snowleopard]

Absolutely your vent could be iced up. Usual symptom for that is a strong stinky smell in the house, but it also makes for a slow flush. I get not wanting to go on roof, but if you have attic access, I would wrap the pipe with heat tape as high up as you can get it, and insulate the outside of it to keep driving the heat towards the pipe.

I had problems with my vent because I made it longer (to match code) and it started icing up. Finally took the extension off (hadn't glued it on, because where is it going to go?) and haven't had problems with it since.

 

[fishingpol]

Does not sound like a drain line blockage. I am thinking it is a blocked vent though. If showers and sinks are all tied into the main drain and share the same stack, the heat from baths, showers, shaving, etc. usually keep the stack on the slightly warm side. I have PVC drains and stacks in my house and when my wife uses the shower and I am working in the basement, the PVC is warm to the touch. That being said, I would not expect a frozen vent, but I could be wrong.

Two thoughts in the attic. Use a hair dryer at the highest point and work your way down. I would expect that if it did freeze, it would be up high near the roof line.

Second, I am not sure if this is code, if you have a PVC stack, you probably could cut out a section in the attic and install a cleanout in-line and glue it in. If you have a rubber boot going through the roof, the pipe should move just enough to fit a clean-out in. Sewer gas is offensive, but you can work with a pipe uncapped or cut open for a while without problems. Drain guys do it all the time.

I do not think you have a clog issue, as if affects all toilets. Blockages usually show up first in a tub drain being lower than the toilet. It is possible that some debris from a tree blew in just enough not to vent air freely.

 

[ironpony]

also check the vent pipe for slope.pitch towards the basement
if there is a low spot it will hold water, even from condensation
have seen it happen, was a hard one to figure out
partially full then heavy rain finally fills up
no air flow
also if you stick your head in the attic and have somone flush
you might hear the gurgle thats how we accidentally found it

sometimes its better to be lucky than good

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Ok, I'm back.
I think you are all right and the vent is somehow partially blocked....problem I have is that although I have access to the roof, I don't think the hairdryer will work, as the pipe then extends above the roof for like 2 feet or so.
I think I have to bite the bullet and call in the pro's.....I'd cut the vent pipe myself, but don't want to cause more damage than good.

 

[ironpony]

if it is PVC just cut it
it is usually 1.5 inch increased to 3 inch to exit
pick up some pvc glue and a coupler

cut the smaller diameter and check for airflow
after you have it cut you can lower the stack into the attic
it goes thru a rubber boot
inspect everything then slide it back thru the boot and glue in the coupler
or if you want to be able to remove again use a rubber fernco coupler with clamps
you can do it and save alot of money
and the crowd chants

DAVE DAVE DAVE

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Thanks Iron. I do hear a buble/gurgle from each toilet when another toilet is flushed. Going to ponderfor a whil and see if I want to try to tackle myself...appreciate the directions on cutting the pipe!

 

[ironpony]

based on your description I would go up in the attic
and look for a low spot, make sure none of the hangars broke, moved
and see if there are any horizontal runs that could hold water
the one I found there was no hangar where the line exited the roof
pushed the pipe up in the boot, heard the water run down
added a hangar
fixed

 

[colebrookman]

I wonder if a handful of rock salt or RV antifreeze might work. I wouldn't use much with the septic . Cutting the pipe and using a rubber splice is no big deal, even better if it's plastic. Be safe. Of course if you're on the roof a heavy duty snake or long metal rod may also work.
Ed

 

[hh3f]

I know when I had a vent problem in my house you would flush the toilet and it would pull the water level down in another bowl. I've heard of animals crawling in the stack and dieing. Also if you have a effluent screen in your tank you might have to dig your tank cover and pull the cartridge and clean it. You could call the guy who pumped your tank and see if this pertains to you.These are just some thoughts that might help you with your problem.good luck.

 

[semipro]

Poor some really hot water down the vent?

 

[Reggie Dunlap]

Frozen vents are common here when the snow gets deep and the temps are cold. Sometimes they will thaw if you run a lot of hot water through your highest bathroom. Or you could just go the roof and clear it by shoving something in there to break up the ice.

I usually spray paint the PVC vents black when we install them, that way a little sun heats them up and keeps them from freezing. You could also put a tee on top to keep snow out, or drill a couple holes in the side of the pipe.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Fixed.
The culprit???...a disc like piece of ice about the circumfrance of a CD rom, and about 1/4 inch thick...it was just on top of the stack...not inside it.
Plumber was very surprised as he had never seen anything like it....I guess when they usually freeze, they start on the outer edge of the pipe, and the pipe forms inside...kinda like a clogged artery constricting the vent...but he never had seen what I had
While he was here, I had another pipe in the basement that needed some work, so it was a 2 for one deal.
You folks were all right, it was the vent...thanks for all the help.

 

[Highbeam]

Seems to me, when you removed the upstairs toilet, that you had technically created a "vent" and that the remaining toilets should have flushed.

Glad you found the real problem. Enjoy the homebrew. I'm making another batch tomorrow.

 

[colebrookman]

Boy I bet that's a relief!! :lol:

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Sure was. And better than that, the plumber was great...really didn't charge me much...and gave me an estimate to add on a third zone for my basement remodel.
What turned into a problem I stressed over turned into some good.

 

[btuser]

Maybe slush/freezing rain blowing across the top and eventually sealing it off. That's crazy. Venting is the magic part of plumbing.

 

[EJW1]

The quickest way to trouble shoot a vent problem that affects the toilet is to pull the trap off of the bathroom sink and flush the toilet. If it vent is plugged this will allow air in or out and the toilet should flush normally.

 

[webbie]

Way back when they had these crazy vents which they allowed you to build into a wall...for a powder room, and it didn't go outside! It was sort of a check valve.
I doubt they are legal any more!...

 

[EJW1]

Way back when they had these crazy vents which they allowed you to build into a wall...for a powder room, and it didn't go outside! It was sort of a check valve.
I doubt they are legal any more!...

They are legal here in NH they just need to be accessible for replacement. They also only work to let air in and close under a positive pressure.

 

[Hogwildz]

Way back when they had these crazy vents which they allowed you to build into a wall...for a powder room, and it didn't go outside! It was sort of a check valve.
I doubt they are legal any more!...

Have 2 in use there.
The previous homeowner installed a second drain pipe for the washer, kitchen sink & laundry room sink, with no vent pipe. Run one, gargle from the other.
No real soil or gas since it is only from the kitchen sink & laundry. But still annoys me. Creates pressure and the one ways don't let out pressure, only vent in. Oh well.
Maybe I'll run a vent up tot the roof someday.

 

[Dune]

Not legal in Mass, but they do sell them here, and now and then some inspecters will let you use one, like in a kitchen island for example, though a bow vent will also work, and is legal.