Plumbing issue--desoldering

[dave11]

I'm removing the old drum trap on my 60 year old bathtub. Copper plumbing, 1.5 inch.

The tub drain and overflow join two arms of a threaded tee. The bottom part of the tee though has what looks like a straight piece of copper pipe inserted into it, and looks to have been soldered. I need to remove the straight pipe to remove the drum trap and make way for a p trap, but it won't desolder. In fact, whatever is in the joint looks dull gray, not shiny like solder.

Have used a MAP torch on it for several minutes at a time, but the joint never loosens.

I assume it was done this way because there is absolutely no room to have gotten a wrench into this area.

Anyone heard of this? Is it something besides standard solder in the joint?

 

[begreen]

Maybe silver solder? I'd just saw it off cleanly below that solder joint or back to the next joint if that is safe and easier. Be careful with that torch around wood. Use a heat shield and wet down the wood both before and after the job.

 

[dave11]

Maybe silver solder? I'd just saw it off cleanly below that solder joint or back to the next joint if that is safe and easier. Be careful with that torch around wood. Use a heat shield and wet down the wood both before and after the job.

Unfortunately, that won't work. The pipe soldered into the bottom of the tee is an adapter, and there is very little of it visible at the standard OD of the copper pipe, so even if I cut it there, I couldn't make a good connection with the amount of proper size pipe available. That's if I could even get anything in there to cut it. Space is very tight, and there's little room to play with for the p trap. Otherwise it will drop below the plane of the ceiling below the bathroom.

Finding a way to desolder the pipe from the tee would solve the problem.

 

[Morgan]

Desoldering old joints can be a nightmare to do sometimes.......I doubt the joint would be silver soldered, probably just soldered with 50/50, I would heat it up just till the solder is melting and come on to it,with vice grips, channel locks, a hammer.......what ever you can attack it with although you say space is tight. If you have a picture it might help me and/or others give you a suggestion on what to do.

 

[dave11]

Desoldering old joints can be a nightmare to do sometimes.......I doubt the joint would be silver soldered, probably just soldered with 50/50, I would heat it up just till the solder is melting and come on to it,with vice grips, channel locks, a hammer.......what ever you can attack it with although you say space is tight. If you have a picture it might help me and/or others give you a suggestion on what to do.

I can get channel locks on to the straight pipe from below, it's just sawing or wrenching that would be a problem.

But I wanted to see if there was some trick to this I was missing. If repeated torching and brute force are the only options, I'll keep working at it.

 

[thinkxingu]

If there's even the least amount of water in there, it will never come undone. Push some paper towels in there, a piece of bread, or something else to absorb the water. Afterwards, it'll just flush out.

S

 

[woodgeek]

I thought drains were sealed with poured lead--would explain the color--can you scape it with your fingernail?

 

[dave11]

I thought drains were sealed with poured lead--would explain the color--can you scape it with your fingernail?

I can only see a tiny edge of it, and can't really touch it. It cannot have been poured though, as it's a vertical pipe joined from below. Whatever got in there must have done so by capillary action.

 

[pastera]

1.5" might need two torches from opposite sides to get it hot enough even with MAPP

 

[mrfjsf]

If there's even the least amount of water in there, it will never come undone. Push some paper towels in there, a piece of bread, or something else to absorb the water. Afterwards, it'll just flush out.

S

This is probably the case. I tried unsoldering 3/4" pipe with MAPP once that just had residual moisture in the pipe, not even standing water, and I had one hell of a time with it. Mapp gas gets PLENTY hot enough to solder/unsolder 1.5" with soft solder provided you are using the right head. You are using a head like this arent you? http://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-TS4000-Trigger-Start-Torch/dp/B00008ZA09

Most of all, be careful with that torch in confined spaces.

 

[dave11]

If there's even the least amount of water in there, it will never come undone. Push some paper towels in there, a piece of bread, or something else to absorb the water. Afterwards, it'll just flush out.

S

This is probably the case. I tried unsoldering 3/4" pipe with MAPP once that just had residual moisture in the pipe, not even standing water, and I had one hell of a time with it. Mapp gas gets PLENTY hot enough to solder/unsolder 1.5" with soft solder provided you are using the right head. You are using a head like this arent you? http://www.amazon.com/Bernzomatic-TS4000-Trigger-Start-Torch/dp/B00008ZA09

Most of all, be careful with that torch in confined spaces.

Yes, I'm using the TS4000 head. And the pipe is cut about three inches below the area I'm trying to desolder. That's the bottom of the all the piping, which should have let all the water out, though there might be residual moisture inside the pipes up higher. I'll try opening it up more.

I'm assuming though that when the pipes were first put together, they weren't wedged tight, or even tapped into place, because this wouldn't have left any room for the solder. Seems to me that when the solder has melted, the pieces should just slip apart, but maybe the process needs more force. I'll try it today.

 

[smokinj]

From another location cut the line and blow it out with air compressor.

 

[dave11]

Here's a pic. You can see the threaded tee, with the straight pipe soldered into the bottom. To the left is the drum trap.

 

[WES999]

FYI, the TS 8000 puts out quite a bit more heat than the TS4000, might be worth a try.
Also a shop vac with a small hose can be good to remove water in the pipe.

 

[maple1]

That's a big old heat sink of a T. I'm also thinking there might be some moisture still in the trap - maybe even in the horizontal pipe going out of the T.

I'm thinking you might need a torch on either side of that pipe - any time I've taken apart something that big & old, I seem to have needed a torch (mine are typical Burnzomatic LP ones) on either side. That could all be very tricky risky business in a space that tight.

On second thought, I have never seen copper soldered inside of what looks like an iron T before.

That might not have been much help - good luck!

 

[dave11]

Well, success on one front, but trouble at another. Took a lot of heating, but finally got it off, as you can see in the pic.

Got the drum trap cut free as well. But the short length of copper pipe leading into the second tee won't desolder. You can see it in the second pic. Heated it way more than I did to the first tee, but still won't budge. I almost wondered if it was a nipple and not a soldered pipe. If I reach inside it, I feel a lot of corrosion, and what might have once been the edge of an inserted pipe, but hard to be sure.

As you can see in the pics, not getting that piece out would mean essentially replumbing the connections between the stack, the main drain line, and the tub.

Any suggestions?

 

[begreen]

Congratulations. That must have been a bear. The Tee shouldn't be soldered in. I can see the coupling nuts. Did you try a monkey wrench on them?

 

[dave11]

Congratulations. That must have been a bear. The Tee shouldn't be soldered in. I can see the coupling nuts. Did you try a monkey wrench on them?

The soldered part I'm working on now is on the other tee, not the one immediately under the tub drain. In the second pic you can see about an inch of copper pipe sticking out of it, cut off now, protruding from a second tee, a non-threaded tee.

I think corrosion is the big problem here though.

 

[maple1]

The only thing I can think to add is to get a pipe wrench on that stub, and put some turning pressure on it while you heat it. Not he-man pressure, just decent steady pressure. If it gives and turns a bit, it'll likely bind up again as soon as you take the wrench off & the solder sticks again, but it should give easier the next time with a pair of vise grips or something pulling it straight out.

 

[Dune]

Are you fluxing the joint before unsweating it?

I always flux sweat joints before unsweating them.

From the look of the joint you are worjking on now, I would try to get a helper.

Have your helper stand by with a vice grip already sized.

Flux the joint, then heat till drops of solder fall out.

Continue to heat while your helper wrests the pipe stub free.

Of course, have a dry rag ready to wipe the solder out of the fitting you will be reusing.

 

[dave11]

It's no go. Tried going back and forth with the torch, and shocking it with cold water, but it won't loosen. Am able to get the metal very briefly to cherry red, which should be plenty hot to melt the solder, but no progress.The copper stub is starting to buckle from the repeated cranking.

Hadn't heard of using flux for unsweating, but it makes good sense. Will give it one more try.

But I bet I'll have to replace that tee, which means replacing all the other fittings from the vent, the tub, and the main drain line, because the whole set up is made of just fittings. The flexible Fernco fittings are the way to go here, yes?

 

[Dune]

It's no go. Tried going back and forth with the torch, and shocking it with cold water, but it won't loosen. Am able to get the metal very briefly to cherry red, which should be plenty hot to melt the solder, but no progress.The copper stub is starting to buckle from the repeated cranking.

Hadn't heard of using flux for unsweating, but it makes good sense. Will give it one more try.

But I bet I'll have to replace that tee, which means replacing all the other fittings from the vent, the tub, and the main drain line, because the whole set up is made of just fittings. The flexible Fernco fittings are the way to go here, yes?

Yep.