post the questions you would like to see

[in hot water]

addressed in a technical journal. We have begun work on an issue dedicated to hydronic for solid fuel boilers. We have engineers here in the US, and in Europe that consult and assemble these journals. We have access to manufacturers and contractors with years of experience with design and installation. We would like to gear the issue to systems as they are designed and installed in the US, with information regarding the parts and technology used in Europe.

Some ideas include

Pressurized vs non
storage types and sizing
pump selection and proper placement
controls
connecting multiple heat sources and options for piping
basic wiring concepts
expansion tank sizing and proper placement
heat emitter options

These journals will be available in hard copies as well as free downloads. There will be some mention of products we manufacture on the final pages as spec sheets. These are not intended to be sales pieces, but good well researched and written in an easy to understand format, tech journals

Please post any other ideas or questions, thanks

hr

 

[DaveBP]

From what I see in system diagrams on European websites it seems vented pressurized storage is common with wood boilers over there. Typically they are vented to the roof from an expansion tank high in the building above the highest radiators.
Since some air will breath in and out of the expansion tank with each burn cycle and in contact with system water some oxygen must get into the system. How much air does get into the water this way? What precautions (water treatments?) are taken? Is it a non issue? We're always told to use oxygen barrier PEX. Seems this is asking for corrosion, too, but Scandinavian members of this forum say nobody there treats their water.

And related: In these systems is it best to send hot supply water up to the expansion tank or cooler return water? That could make a difference in how much air was absorbed into the water while it was in the expansion tank.

Thanks, hot rod.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Not sure how to word this as a question . . .

Outdoor reset control of a mixing station ( minimize radiant water temps when possible ), buffer tanks versus storage and constant circulation seem to be common in Europe systems. But I wonder . . . without storage, but with low volume wood-fired hydronic units, it seems difficult to keep up during short periods of peak demand.

my question . . .

With wood, would it be better to run constant circulation WITHOUT limiting the water temps? This would seem to raise the air temps quickest, thus eliminating a situation where all zones come on at the same time (often followed by all zones off at the same time). My observation is the up and downs are difficult with wood.

 

[WoodNotOil]

The btu sizing of heating zones seems to be a big difference between Euro designs and US. We size ours for 180* water and find them inadequate as the temp drops. They design theirs (I think) for water temp down to 100-120*?

Piping and controls seems to be a big hurtle for people wanting to put a secondary heat source in here, so I think you are right on there...

 

[chuck172]

The way I understand it Euro designs feed heating loads only through storage, never directly through the boiler. In other words, the storage must come up to temperature before the radiators get any hot water.
I wonder if they are on to something?

 

[joecool85]

The way I understand it Euro designs feed heating loads only through storage, never directly through the boiler. In other words, the storage must come up to temperature before the radiators get any hot water.
I wonder if they are on to something?

Interesting...when I talked about doing it this way I was scoffed at.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

The way I understand it Euro designs feed heating loads only through storage, never directly through the boiler. In other words, the storage must come up to temperature before the radiators get any hot water.
I wonder if they are on to something?

Interesting...when I talked about doing it this way I was scoffed at.

In my experience that's not QUITE correct. When the drawing looks like the tank is 'between' the boiler and the zones, it will be a pressurized tank with inputs and outputs opposite one another at the top of the tank. This way hot water coming into the tank can pass straight across the top of the tank and out the other side if the zones are calling - think of it as a huge hydraulic separator. This can work well, but requires more fittings on the tank than we normally have. Something to consider if you are ordering a custom tank or are planning on using a VERTICAL propane tank.

As far as questions/topics for the paper, I would like to see a discussion of thermal protection for the boiler (Termovar, Esbe, Laddomat, etc.).

 

[Floydian]

The way I understand it Euro designs feed heating loads only through storage, never directly through the boiler. In other words, the storage must come up to temperature before the radiators get any hot water.
I wonder if they are on to something?

Interesting...when I talked about doing it this way I was scoffed at.

This is exactly what I'm what I'm planning for my system. I think low temp heat emitters are the key though.
With integrated storage this is how a Garn works and it's hard to find any negative comment on them. Yes, I have a Garn crush, unfortunately it wont work out for us. Ha

HR-When do you see this journal being available? I can't wait.

My question wood pertain to low temp emitters, specifically radiant ceilings. Also the use of TRV's in this application. I have Modern Hydronic Heating and radiant ceilings are discussed but more info would be great. I am waiting on the Wirsbo CDAM, maybe it has the info I'm looking for.

Noah

 

[powerspec]

The way I understand it Euro designs feed heating loads only through storage, never directly through the boiler. In other words, the storage must come up to temperature before the radiators get any hot water.
I wonder if they are on to something?

Interesting...when I talked about doing it this way I was scoffed at.

In my experience that's not QUITE correct. When the drawing looks like the tank is 'between' the boiler and the zones, it will be a pressurized tank with inputs and outputs opposite one another at the top of the tank. This way hot water coming into the tank can pass straight across the top of the tank and out the other side if the zones are calling - think of it as a huge hydraulic separator. This can work well, but requires more fittings on the tank than we normally have. Something to consider if you are ordering a custom tank or are planning on using a VERTICAL propane tank.

As far as questions/topics for the paper, I would like to see a discussion of thermal protection for the boiler (Termovar, Esbe, Laddomat, etc.).

Sales guy: Can you elaborate on your comment regarding the piping needed for vertical LP tanks? I'm thinking of a system using twin 500 gal tanks on end with of course no fittings readily available on the end bells.
thnks
Powerspec

 

[WoodNotOil]

The way I understand it Euro designs feed heating loads only through storage, never directly through the boiler. In other words, the storage must come up to temperature before the radiators get any hot water.
I wonder if they are on to something?

Interesting...when I talked about doing it this way I was scoffed at.

In my experience that's not QUITE correct. When the drawing looks like the tank is 'between' the boiler and the zones, it will be a pressurized tank with inputs and outputs opposite one another at the top of the tank. This way hot water coming into the tank can pass straight across the top of the tank and out the other side if the zones are calling - think of it as a huge hydraulic separator. This can work well, but requires more fittings on the tank than we normally have. Something to consider if you are ordering a custom tank or are planning on using a VERTICAL propane tank.

As far as questions/topics for the paper, I would like to see a discussion of thermal protection for the boiler (Termovar, Esbe, Laddomat, etc.).

Bioheat is right here about it being piped like a big hydro-separator.

joecool85 - that is the difference between what you proposed (pushing it through a coil) and what happens with pressurized storage. The water actually passes through the top of the tank and back out to the zones allowing immediate use of heat.

Floydian - Piping this way through press. storage would actually have this advantage over a Garn. A Garn does have to bring the whole volume of water up to a usable temp before heat is available from it.

 

[heaterman]

Hey Hot Rod, I've been looking at the EPA phase I and II test results posted on the government website and doing some pencil pushing. Long story short, the numbers do not add up when you look at the combination of burn rate listed vs grams of particulate per hour and then use the particulate per million btu to check them. Something is seriously messed up with those numbers because they should correlate but as listed they aren't even close.
The other thing that bugs me is the bogus testing protocol which uses sawn, stacked and cribbed kiln dried wood with no bark or debris anywhere in the fire box. Could anything be further from real world use? Someone needs to call out the EPA on this and get them to come up with a valid test because people are getting misled on these supposedly clean burning OWB's. I recently saw pictures of a compliant listed unit in actual real world use and it looked like my brother's smokehouse with a 2000 pound load of hams in it.

So for you or anyone here, who can we get in contact about this? Where did EPA come up with this supposedly valid testing method and emission data?
To me, it's starting to look like the old saying "figures don't lie but liars sure can figure". How does a person go about calling out the EPA?

Someone with a math major crunch these numbers and tell me how they make sense. Maybe I'm unaware of some factors used or just flat out ding it wrong.

http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Have to agree with Heaterman. I am no math major & the EPA has to be full of folks who are even more math challenged than me, as it just does not add up (their math). I just don't see how having units listed at a performance level that is nearly physically impossible (given the fuel source) is of any benefit to the public. Who on earth would wan't a wood fired boiler that operates well into the condensing range in % eff. The thing would rot out in a season condensing all the flue gases present in a wood fire.

Maybe I am looking at this the wrong way, I should view this as an opportunity not an obstacle....so OK here goes.....manufacturer (that's me) announces breakthrough technology in the wood fired hydronics industry.... the "Canadian Variable Speed Campfire" dominates the industry after earning the highest level of EPA approval.

I will add a variable speed fan to your standard campfire, to that I will add a tin hood filled with water, to that I will add an exercise wheel for (your choice here) a chipmunk or squirrel (makes the product green you see) the wheel drives the (small) circ pump.

EPA is gonna love this unit.

Cost will be low.

No need for testing as the product is so green.

If they want a test I will give them a bogus number, judging from their own website it should fit right in.

Inputs are low, rodent food & wood.

Sounds like a winner.

Of course the company won't be around long enough to honor the outrageous warranty & perfomance claims it will make.

 

[Nofossil]

I'd like to see real-world design data for storage tank insulation - the effectiveness of different insulation materials and techniques. What's the most effective insulation per inch? Per dollar? What's the relative importance of conduction vs. radiation vs. convection as sources of heat loss?

 

[RobC]

Explore minimizing electrical consumption. Potential for gravity feed between boiler and storage ? Zone valves rather than circulators for every zone. The best use for delta pressure and delta temperature circulators.
Rob

 

[Dune]

Explore minimizing electrical consumption. Potential for gravity feed between boiler and storage ? Zone valves rather than circulators for every zone. The best use for delta pressure and delta temperature circulators.
Rob

Seconded.