Powering Insert Blower

[vgrund]

As noted in some previous posts I'm adding a gas insert to one of my masonry fireplaces (the other will always burn wood). The insert has a blower which, of course, requires AC power. I'm wondering, what is the proper way to get power to insert without hanging a wire out the front of the unit (yuck). Some have suggested to me that it would be OK to simply run it through the ash dump and out the cleanout door in the basement.

Remember (Elk), I'm asking here because I want to know the right way... I'm not seeking approval for hillbilly engineering.

Victor

 

[nshif]

Im Assuming you mean the ash dump in the fireplace? ( not that ive seen a gas stove with an ash dump ) Where is it located ? Under the stove or behind it and how close?

 

[vgrund]

There is no stove, I'm talking about an open masonry fireplace into which an insert will go. The ash dump is near the rear of the fireplace, covered by a metal door.

 

[nshif]

And the gas insert sits where? sorry to refer to it as a stove.

 

[vgrund]

Uh, the insert goes into the fireplace. http://mb-soft.com/juca/info/ashdump.html

Way down at the bottom of the masonry stack there is a clean-out door.

Victor

 

[nshif]

OK so I guess my question is.... Does the cord need to run under the insert to get to the ash dump? This may cause the cord to overheat and trip the circuit breaker or worse yet melt.

 

[ozarkjeep]

on my earth stove,

I drilled a new hole in the BACK of the side panel where the blowers are, and used flexable ( metal) conduit fastened to the edges of the masanry ( away from the firebox) down thru the ash door, outdoor, plastic conduit to an junction box/outlet from a 220breaker box on the side of the house that was installed for a hot tub.

OK so I guess my question is.... Does the cord need to run under the insert to get to the ash dump? This may cause the cord to overheat and trip the circuit breaker or worse yet melt.

 

[vgrund]

Seriously, I have no idea yet. I am considering removing the blower option, for I read that the unit puts out some pretty good heat without one. It's a Heat-N-Glo FB-IN firebrick model.

 

[vgrund]

Well it seems I'll need power whether or not I have a blower... It is required for the remote receiver. It's seems a good idea to enclose the wire in metal conduit, like ozarkjeep did.

Attach photos if you've done this before... A picture says a thousand words!

 

[Mike Wilson]

FYI, I thought of doing this with my Kennebec, I even had a test wire of the same type as the power cord on the blower which I put under the insert and down through the ash dump into the basement... it melted. I moved it a little, tried to space it away from the stove as much as possible... it melted. Then I bought some of that high temperature extension cord, strung it through the hole... it melted. Point is this... its really pretty hot under the stove, hot enough to melt the cord insulation away. You might... might just try it, as you're "burning" a gas insert, and I don't know how hot those get... but I don't have high hopes. I know you don't like the idea of the cord, but you may have to learn to live with it, or else try Ozark's idea.

-- Mike

 

[GVA]

Depending on how hot the area gets.....
get some MC cable.... some people call this BX..... it's similar but MC has a ground wire in it.
Heres the problem though, the wire inside is THHN which has a temp rating of 194*F
if you remove the THHN and put TGGT wire in its place the rating is now 482*F
I used to use the TGGT wire in plastic extrusion systems and holds up really well. However it is not found at home stores and you will need to find a electrical distributor for it and even then some will only sell it by the spool 500' minimum.
Again it all depends on the temperature in the area you will be using it.
There are some higher but are not UL listed...

 

[vgrund]

FYI, I thought of doing this with my Kennebec, I even had a test wire of the same type as the power cord on the blower which I put under the insert and down through the ash dump into the basement... it melted. I moved it a little, tried to space it away from the stove as much as possible... it melted. Then I bought some of that high temperature extension cord, strung it through the hole... it melted. Point is this... its really pretty hot under the stove, hot enough to melt the cord insulation away. You might... might just try it, as you're "burning" a gas insert, and I don't know how hot those get... but I don't have high hopes. I know you don't like the idea of the cord, but you may have to learn to live with it, or else try Ozark's idea.

-- Mike

The FB-IN manual states:

"Plug the cord into a convenient outlet. An electrician may install an outlet box inside the fireplace. Place the outlet in the lower, back corner of the fireplace."

This is definitely doable in the case of my unit. Has anyone here done this?

 

[GVA]

http://content.hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/783_908.pdf
The manual for the rest of us to follow....
It sounds like you can get away with 105*C rated wire and an outlet inside the fireplace I can't remember what kind of wire falls under that rating but if the SJ cord coming out of the back of the stove is rated to 105* than you should be ok putting an outlet inside the fireplace AS SPECIFIED in the manual Use the appropriate wire though.

 

[ozarkjeep]

This should give you an idea.

this is before I routed it around the outer bottom corner of the fireplace.

insert has been to 700 degrees with the blower off, with no problems.

 

[elkimmeg]

a metal resesed box can be installed in the rear location s as indicated by the manufacturer. I would drill threw the bricks for the feed then using a masonry bit drill out as
many holes ans possible to recess the electrical box chip it out cement it in ore use a tapcon to fasten it to the bricks

 

[ozarkjeep]

I considered a box inside the fireplace, but I needed an outlet outside the house on that side of the yard anyway, ( on the side of the fireplace brick) and its 20 feet down the wall to a 220 breaker box.

I installed a GFCI, I figured that makes the outside outlet safer, and the stove somewhat safer in the event of a wiring meltdown.

a metal resesed box can be installed in the rear location s as indicated by the manufacturer. I would drill threw the bricks for the feed then using a masonry bit drill out as
many holes ans possible to recess the electrical box chip it out cement it in ore use a tapcon to fasten it to the bricks

 

[Mike Wilson]

FYI, I thought of doing this with my Kennebec, I even had a test wire of the same type as the power cord on the blower which I put under the insert and down through the ash dump into the basement... it melted. I moved it a little, tried to space it away from the stove as much as possible... it melted. Then I bought some of that high temperature extension cord, strung it through the hole... it melted. Point is this... its really pretty hot under the stove, hot enough to melt the cord insulation away. You might... might just try it, as you're "burning" a gas insert, and I don't know how hot those get... but I don't have high hopes. I know you don't like the idea of the cord, but you may have to learn to live with it, or else try Ozark's idea.

-- Mike

The FB-IN manual states:

"Plug the cord into a convenient outlet. An electrician may install an outlet box inside the fireplace. Place the outlet in the lower, back corner of the fireplace."

This is definitely doable in the case of my unit. Has anyone here done this?

Glad to hear the manual says you can do it. Let us know how it goes. I'm not very familiar with the Heat-N-Glo brand of stove, I think they make mostly gas products though.

My advice is based on my own experience, and it is not to put the wire in through the ash cleanout, because, as nshif said above, your insert will then be in direct contact with the wiring, and the wiring may melt... mine did, with high temp wire. You're basically routing the wire in a U-turn from the fan, going right down and under the insert itself, into the ash cleanout door. Putting an outlet on an inside wall in the fireplace itself is a wholly separate idea, which should work fine... as will routing it through the ash cleanout if the ash cleanout is physically behind the back of the stove itself. At that point you're not in direct contact with the stove. Plus, as you know, a gas insert is probably not going to get as hot as a real woodburning insert, something else working in your favor. Either way, I would definitely get the blower, your heat output will increase significantly.

-- Mike

 

[coldinnj]

If putting this new junction box in the fireplace and then mounting the insert inside the fireplace you are in effect creating a concealed junction box. This is against code.
All junction boxes must be exposed.
Check with AB Johnstone, All Phase electric, or any other electrical supply house for the proper heat and amperage rated wire.
If you tell them the temperatures they will have the wire your need. Remeber also that you may have to add more to the needed rating if the wire is to be put into conduit as this can prevent the disipation of heat. The routing of said wire through the old cleanout should be fine as this fulfills the rule of protection from physical damage.
Also remember to be careful of mixing Aluminum and copper wires. If not done properly there is danger.

 

[vgrund]

This makes me wonder if it would be better (not to mention easier) just to run the 10 ft cord from the gas insert down the ash dump (105C rated as noted) connecting to a heavy duty extension cord. I will have to speak to an electrician about this. This is very confusing for a neophyte.

It makes me wonder why every stove shop employee around me, after they finish shaking my hand, makes disclaimers about not doing electrical or gas plumbing. It seems to me that customers would prefer a vendor that could be a one-stop shop. There must be some special liability concern that makes this impractical. My sprinkler company certainly does this... They work with 4 different plumbers, for example. When they schedule an install, they install the entire system and not just the sprinklers leaving plumbing and electrical connections left as an exercise for the homeowner.

Victor

 

[GVA]

If putting this new junction box in the fireplace and then mounting the insert inside the fireplace you are in effect creating a concealed junction box. This is against code.
All junction boxes must be exposed.

The routing of said wire through the old cleanout should be fine as this fulfills the rule of protection from physical damage.
Also remember to be careful of mixing Aluminum and copper wires. If not done properly there is danger.

JUNCTION BOXES-They must be accessible.....The insert is not a permanent structure and can be slid out.

RUNNING A CORD THROUGH CLEANOUT- if it has the door in place this can cause the cord to be damaged

AL CU WIRES- Unless you're gonna run 1 ought or heavier, Aluminium is not usually an option at least here in the U.S.

 

[coldinnj]

AL is not bad in itself. It is the mixing of the two that can cause problems. It is within code as long as the right bonding agents / devices are used. There are many applications where it has been used within code and proper. Without going into all the reasons ie. nonuniform expansion and contraction rates, reactions of disimiliar metals etc.
That being said if one is not familiar with the proper application just stick with Copper.