Problems with my Vermont Castings Defiant Catalytic

[Heat Miser]

Hello,

First time poster here. I used the search engines extensively to try to answer my questions and found some great responses. This forum is a wonderful resource with very knowledgeable posters.

However I have some more questions. I bought a Vermont Castings Defiant Catalytic in early 2005. It was replacing a pellet stove in our new home (we lose power from time to time and wanted reliable winter heat). This stove is our primary heat source. Our backup heat source is a VC Radiance LP stove which is quite expensive to run with the current gas prices.

Two days ago I was walking by the stove and saw the temp. gauge I have on the flue was at 700-750 degrees. Normally it should never get higher than 500 degrees when I set the stove on high. I immediately turned the stove down and even on the low setting it didn't get below 500 degrees until the wood burned down. The walls around the stove were also getting quite hot and I stayed around and babysat the stove until it cooled off sufficiently. The stove didn't appear to overfire and get red but I've never had it up to 700 degrees.

Today I went into the stove and checked all the gaskets and seals around the door and ash pan. I also adjusted the door handles to make sure they were tight enough. I didn't see any problems and fired the stove up again with a load of wood and got it up to temperature. I then watched the stove and it again went up to 700-750 degrees with the cat engaged. I lowered the temp and let the stove burn down.

So now I have this stove and it is having some problems. I don't know if the thermostat is going bad, if there is another air leak, etc. I intend to call the dealer to get some service (hopefully) under warranty. Perhaps someone here has other things for me to check?

So I'm looking for options here. I intend to get the stove repaired in any case, but I'm looking now at other stove options. Am I out of my gourd or doing this? Should I just get this stove fixed considering it is just 2-3 years old? Is this thing going to even hold up for someone burning about four cords of wood a year?

Well I may get rid of it. If I do replace it here are my desires in the new stove:

- Big enough to heat a 3300 sq. ft. house with two floors
- Must be able to handle heavy use in winter in a temperate Pacific NW climate
- Long burn times
- Top loading a plus
- Catalytic or Non-Catalytic doesn't matter
- Needs to have good build quality
- Steel or Cast Iron or maybe soapstone (don't know much about soapstone)
- Needs to work as free-standing

The VC stove has the thermostatic control which I thought was a good thing until this latest episode. Perhaps a manual damper will be less prone to having problems? What are the advantges/disadvantages of the thermostat and is it worth looking for this feature?

So what are the other long-burning reliable stoves out there?

Thanks for any input you may have.

EDIT: My stove is now fixed. Just replaced the gaskets in the door, ash pan and stove top and it's good as new. Cost about $30 total and about one hour of my time. I'm going to make it an annual maintenance ritual just to be safe. I've learned to love the thermostat and it works reliably. The stove burns 12+ hours easily overnight and has plenty of hot coals in the bottom to re-start the next load. Just wanted to add this addendum to my message because my original post seemed too negative on this stove and it shouldn't have been.

 

[JimWalshin845]

Hell.. sounds like a great stove! You can deliver it to.......

I will make sure there is a 6-pack of your favorite brew on the doorstep when you bring it to my hearh,

If I must pay for the labor for the other 3 men and the virgin (I imagine they will come from AK, PA, NY)to bring it to exact location, I think I may have enough Rye Bread and Cranberry Sauce from Thanksgiving to make it worth their while.

I promise you will only pay me $150.00US to get rid of your stove and I will not tell a sole!

We already have a VC Defiant, geeesh.. only 30 years old. I guess coming from a Pellet head environment you must be really disappointed? Yep... wood stoves do go A-muck.... if your going to go this way get USE TO IT

Welcome aboard, :red:
J&K;

 

[eernest4]

for heating 3,300 sq ft does not leave you with a lot of stoves to choose from. Most are too small to fill your heating requirements. You are looking at the extra large (top of the line )
stoves, regardless of what stove brand you buy.

Many manufactureers dont even make stoves that big.

pacific summit, 97,000 btu,rated 2000 to 3000 sq ft, $2,460.oo delevered.

osburn 2400, 2700 sq ft, 99,000 btu,$1635.19 & blower, variable speed,$252.50=
$1887.69 & ship, if ship not free?


hearth stove equinox, available dec 2007, 120,000 btu, rated 3,500 sq ft, 774 lbs
soapstone so it holds heat a long,long time, but takes a while to heat up also.
secondary burn epa rated , 4 cu ft firebox holds 80 lbs hardwood,25 in logs,78 % efficiency
$3195.00 & 30.oo epa tax & 575.oo ship=
$3,800.oo

FOR THE MONIES INVOLVED, 2000.00 TO 3800.00, the
_____________________________________________________________________________

cheapest way out is to fix what you got.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My stove hits 750* -- 800* flue temp almost every time i fire it, unelse I use non seasoned or wet wood, but my stove is not a epa stove, it is a old time 35 to 1 from 1970 vintage.

It only stays at 800 for less than 3 to 6 minutes, as i put a 24 inch fan on the flue to reclaim
all that nice heat & blow it around the room.

But i am using 8 in black single wall stove pipe & can easily drop the temp right down to 400*
just by shutting down my primary air.

I do it to char off the wood ,right after liting the stove. It gets everything hot & warms the room fast. Sometimes, after i knock the flue temp down to 600, I can get it back up to 750,
if my wood is not 2 spent, & turn the fan on again, for another 3 or 4 minutes of great heat.

But I only do this when i can be right with the stove. If i need to leave the stove, I make sure
my wood is farely chared off & set the primary air & damper for 400 * & check it again after 4 ro 6 minutes to insure that the temp does not rise.

Point is, while you should respect high flue temps & watch them very, very closely, you dont need to be scared to death of them.

If I were you,i'd fix your stove; call a factory authorized repair man and then watch it carefully to insure that proper opperation consistantly occurs.

Unelse you feel a overwelming need to empty your wallet & buy a new stove, just for the joy of it.

 

[jpl1nh]

It would seem reasonable to me that setting your stove at high would allow it to get up to 700-750, especially with good draft conditions. Are you saying that set at medium or low, it still will get to 700 or will it be more like 600 or 500 at those respective settings? It sounds like its performing quite well. One of the things I enjoy about a wood stove is that operating it is kind of a cross between science and art. Not rocket science mind you, but it does take some understandings of the variables of fuel types and amounts, weather conditions and air settings. As Jim seemed to allude to, going from a set it and forget it pellet stove to a wood stove might make the wood stove seem tempermental. I'm not personally familiar with the defiant cat but know some posters will be along who are. But all in all, I'd hang in there. It sounds like it may just be adjusting your settings. Nice to know you can get 700 out of it if you need it!

 

[JimWalshin845]

for heating 3,300 sq ft does not leave you with a lot of stoves to choose from. Most are too small to fill your heating requirements. You are looking at the extra large (top of the line )
stoves, regardless of what stove brand you buy.

[edited by Mo due to reader complaint, no need for baiting new posters here at hearthnet, we're all civilized human beings, not Cavemen, no offense to HogWildz intended, ]

The Defiant that I have doesn't say "Parlor Stove"... It sez "Parlor FURNACE"

If he wants a unit that will suit his needs maybe he should look at the Yukon units, wood/coal/oil/gas that can handle a 3,300sf home for baseboard or forced hot air.

We heat about 1,900sf with our old Defiant on the first floor and that doesn't include the MBR, bath or laundry room that are on the first floor. There is a stairwell that leads up to the other 3 bedrooms in the main room that the VC is in. We seal that off with visquine and the entry to the stairs looks like you are going into a walk in cooler. Not attractive but we are warm and VERY cozy.

For those that want a total heat solution, either make your home under 2,500sf or move to the tropics.

 

[mikeathens]

I don't know about the defiant, but I used to strive for 600+ F out of my Dutchwest(s). Man, at those temperatures, when it was below zero outside, it was a great feeling to know that I could really crank it up for extra warmth. The thermometer on my side door would commonly read 600-700 F. The stack would always be in the orange zone on my surface chimney thermometer.

Now, you're not talking about the catalyst temp, are you? That sucker should be in the 1200-1400 degree range.

With the problems described, if your chimney is getting super hot, you may have a bad gasket on your damper, letting super-hot gasses bypass the catalyst (I'm assuming this one is similar to the dutchwest cat.).

Anyhow, I wouldn't sweat it. Are you getting smoke out of the chimney? Is it going through a ton of wood? I go through a good 7-10 cords of wood in a typical winter here in SE Ohio - in a 1800 SF house with moderate/poor insulation. Your stove should be a ble to handle constant burning and 10+ cords of wood during the winter.

 

[kwburn]

sounds really similar to what i posted about the other day. my defiant encore temps were creeping up into the 800-900's (griddle temps) without much control to bring them down. the gaskets all looked fine but i changed them anyway and voila, 550-600 degrees on low. my local home depot happened to carry the correct gasket size (7 feet for $5 - you will need two). i would change them before getting a new stove or paying someone to service it.

is your fire concentrating on the right side of the stove at the beginning? i found the right side of the ash door very hard to get a tight seal, even with a new gasket. i had to adjust the latch to really make it crank down tight.

 

[begreen]

Welcome HM. By the description, this doesn't sound alarming. What wood are you burning this year? Any fir or madrona in the mix?

Describe the flue on the stove. How tall? Is it straight up?

 

[swestall]

I ran the Encore CAT stove for 8 years with no big problems. It sometimes would get up to 700, esp when I burned dry wood and in the mid stage of the burn. The CAT is going to burn a bit hotter on full throttle. Temps from 500-650 are pretty normal, I don't think 700 is overfiring for you. Agree on the change the gaskets comments. The t-stat is also an easy change, if you don't know what this looks like go to the CFM/VC site and download the stove PDF for the breakdown.
If you do replace it, proceed with caution as you won't find a better stove for set and go than this one. Some of the non cat stoves with secondary burn tubes come close. It will be hard to find a stove that burns cleaner and requires minimal attention when it is working correctly. CAT stoves do burn hotter; that's why they heat so well, burn so clean and use less wood. You may notice that I went to a N/C Defiant; the CAT version was better and I am rebuilding it for reinstall... ;-)

 

[Heat Miser]

Thanks for the comments. Here are my responses:

Re: Stove temp

The stove temp running 700 is very unusual. I've been running the stove for two years. The high setting never goes above 500. When it was at 700 it was getting that "I'm too hot" smell. Also my house is all wood. The walls around the stove were getting way too hot. Almost too hot to touch. Not a good thing. Something has gone wrong with the stove.

Re: Size of my house

Yes my house is big. There is nothing I can do about it. We have mild winters here in the Pacific NW with temps rarely going into the 20's and mostly staying in the 30-50's range even at night. I don't need a big stove to heat the house. The size stove I have is perfectly adequate for our needs. I think many stoves are rated based on the coldest Canadian/New England winter weather. We never get that type weather here. Usually just a lot of rain with some snow from time to time.

Re: Wood type.

I'm burning a mix of maple, alder and (very little) fir. I've been using this mix ever since I bought the stove. The wood is seasoned 1-2 years. It never burned this hot before. I was burning maple/alder both times when it got too hot.

Re: Hearthstone Equinox

That stove is a beast! I'm afraid that it would be so large that it would turn my house into a sauna. I'll check it out though.

Re: Gaskets

Thanks for the tip about checking out the damper. I'm going to call the service people and have them check out the stove gaskets too. It is acting like it's getting too much air. It's frustrating that this stove would need gasket replacement after only two years though.

Re: Flue

The Flue is a 90 bend through the wall and another 90 to the two-story tall chimney. The chimney pipe was replaced in 2004 with a modern code version.


Sounds like I need to get the service people out to check things out. Any other help appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[tradergordo]

It is acting like it's getting too much air. It's frustrating that this stove would need gasket replacement after only two years though.

I know some people go decades without replacing their gaskets - but really the manufacturers recommend replacing them about every 2 years, and checking them at least twice a season (dollar bill test). They can easily become compressed, soiled, damaged, or loose.

 

[webbie]

I also think there may be nothing (or little) wrong. First of all, on that stove I would always use a thermometer on the griddle or behind it, as opposed to the pipe....or both.

The stove temps is fine at that point in the range of 500-750 and occasionally hotter.

Let me address the walls getting hot. If the stove is installed to specs, you can get that stove to 1000 degree (in theory) and hotter on the surface and you will be fine. This is because VC tests the stoves at a MUCH hotter temp than you can get, and that establishes the clearances. So what is hot - or too hot? According to UL, about 160 degree or over on a combustible surface - maybe even up to 170-180 in some cases. This would be WAY too hot to put your hand on. If you can put you hand on it for a few seconds, chances are that it is under 120, a temperature that a wood door in the desert would hit even day!

Yes, something may be wrong - perhaps the primary or secondary air damper is stuck, but you can check those. Why don't you take a look at the manual and maybe even the service manual -
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Defiant_Encore/

Not directly addressing you, but for posterity - I ran a shop for 20+ years and we often had customers come in and say "the stove never burned exactly like this before" many times. My usual answer was "there are no two days and combination of weather, humidity, wood, operator, chimney and other variables that are exactly the same".

While I don't doubt your experience with the stove, I've had models that worked at 500-600 degree, and then one day put in a piece of "iron wood" - standing dead oak, and had the thing hit 950. Woodstoves are, by nature, more of an art than a science.

One piece of slightly bad news is that the approx date of your stove MAY be when CFM was at it's worst. The company was taken over in 2005 by a pension fund after the failure of the company and management. The have been complaints about build quality during the period before that date (a couple years, at least). But, at the same time, those problems were usually details....and once fixed should work fine.

So I say "don't dump yet"

 

[Heat Miser]

I also think there may be nothing (or little) wrong. First of all, on that stove I would always use a thermometer on the griddle or behind it, as opposed to the pipe....or both.

Ok I'll think about doing that. I run it on the oval connector above the cat element. The installer recommended that way as I could better gauge when to engage the cat. But I'll purchase another one as well for the griddle.

Let me address the walls getting hot. If the stove is installed to specs, you can get that stove to 1000 degree (in theory) and hotter on the surface and you will be fine. This is because VC tests the stoves at a MUCH hotter temp than you can get, and that establishes the clearances. So what is hot - or too hot? According to UL, about 160 degree or over on a combustible surface - maybe even up to 170-180 in some cases. This would be WAY too hot to put your hand on. If you can put you hand on it for a few seconds, chances are that it is under 120, a temperature that a wood door in the desert would hit even day!

Good point. I was just concerned because my walls are wood that they could char or worse. In any event, the episode has gotten me nervous enough that I'm going to pay to have a mason hearth built around the stove. I just don't want to risk it with the bare wood walls any more.

Yes, something may be wrong - perhaps the primary or secondary air damper is stuck, but you can check those. Why don't you take a look at the manual and maybe even the service manual -

Will do. I also have a gasket kit and I may just go and replace all the gaskets in the stove today.

While I don't doubt your experience with the stove, I've had models that worked at 500-600 degree, and then one day put in a piece of "iron wood" - standing dead oak, and had the thing hit 950. Woodstoves are, by nature, more of an art than a science.

Possible for sure. I thought it was some extra dry wood or something that did it the first night. But it happened again and I thought I better look at it closer.

One piece of slightly bad news is that the approx date of your stove MAY be when CFM was at it's worst. The company was taken over in 2005 by a pension fund after the failure of the company and management. The have been complaints about build quality during the period before that date (a couple years, at least). But, at the same time, those problems were usually details....and once fixed should work fine.

Yeah. I found that out after I bought the stove. Even worse, I just called the dealer and they told me their technician doesn't work on wood stoves in the winter. What kind of service is that? It's like calling up the guy to fix your AC in the summer and him saying he only works on AC units when it's below freezing.

Thanks again...

 

[mikeathens]

You should assume relacing gaskets on your most used doors somewhat frequently - like maybe 2 years or less, but I have had them last a lot longer. On your damper, the glue can just let loose and the gasket can fall off. If it is the way i'M thinking, if it falls off in just one section, it could actually hold the damper partially open and make it seem like you're getting too much air. Also, do your dollar bill test on each of the door gaskets and the ash pan gasket - take a dollar bill, open the door, and close it with the bill between the gasket and door. If you can pull the bill out with the door closed and latched, you need to adjust the door or replace the gasket. Do this on all four sides. There's no reason to pay some goofball $75 to do this. At least this way you could rule out the gaskets and tell him to pound send when he informs you that you need new ones. Don't be surprised if they act like an auto mechanic and try to sell you a $400 brake pad replacment when all you needed was a lug nut tightened.

 

[Cath]

Heat Miser,
Welcome to the forum.

I'm a relative newcomer so I can't add much except a couple of idle thoughts: 1) I wouldn't even think about getting a new stove until you double checked the actual temp with a new thermometer. 2) If you are correct and this stove has never reached these temps before then I'm guessing that "new stove burning" smell that you are getting is quite simply because you've never reached those temps before. I seem to remember reading recently that you will get that "new stove smell" each time you hit a new high temperature. I'm thinking this 2005 stove is relatively new enough that the smell would not have "aged" or "cured", or whatever, sufficiently that this wouldn't apply.

Having said that, I would certainly follow the suggestions of the veterans that have already replied above.
~Cath

 

[Heat Miser]

I replaced the ash pan gasket, door gasket and griddle gasket today. I tightened up the damper adjustment screw and left the gasket alone (which is what the VC manual recommended to try first before replacing the gasket). I also left the glass gaskets alone because they don't take much abuse from opening and closing. I fired up the stove and it appears to be holding temperature again. I'll run it hard this weekend when I'm around to really watch things but hopefully the new gaskets fixed the problem. The seals feel like new again. The old ones were more compressed than I thought and probably were leaking.

Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[webbie]

I wish we had more customers with your problems - too much heat! Wow, as we used to say, easier to make a stove put out less heat and a chimney draft less than the opposite!

Sounds like a little TLC goes a long way. People will call me superstitious, but I think mechanical stuff responds to attention......like it "knows" you are going to get the best of it sooner or later, so it will generally capitulate before you get too drastic (like getting rid of it). After all, who knows how nice the next owner will be?

 

[Heat Miser]

Just a follow-up. I burned the stove pretty hot the past couple days and it's holding temp rock solid now. I now like my stove again.

I went around and looked at a lot of the local shops thinking about a stove. I'd have to say that my VC stove build quality that I was calling mediocre is in fact not mediocre. It compares favorably to the other stoves I viewed. The top-loading is a huge plus and it has spoiled me as I can pack that firebox to the brim with wood and burn for a long time. Also the firebox is huge compared to the other stoves I saw and this is important for my house. So I need to send an apology card to my stove and hope it forgives me for speaking ill of it.

So I now have a second question about getting more convection heat out of this stove. As it is primarily a radiant heater I'd like to come up with a way to move more air around it and get it upstairs. The ceiling in the room where the stove is located are too low for a ceiling fan however. Is there a way for me to hook up a blower to send air up the rear heat shield that is installed on this stove? I don't think VC makes a blower for this stove but I wanted to know if getting some other blower is workable and safe. Are their other options for moving air around this stove and getting more convection heat?

Thanks again for the help.

 

[BrotherBart]

Get a nice "I Am Sorry" card at the store and then write your inner most feelings about your stove on it. Then open that top loader and drop that card in while the stove is cranking. The stove will get the message and nobody will ever see your sappy message to your stove in case you ever run for public office.

 

[begreen]

Well put BB. A defiant in the Pac NW needs to be in a big space. This is a serious heater. Now that we're in the low 30's we all have our stoves cranking and finally they get a chance to be real stoves. The Castine is much happier when I tell it "more heat", than when I tell it, that's enough and the stovetop is only 450.

 

[cbrodsky]

You mentioned smell - I find this to be normal as well when you get a really hot fire above normal conditions. My guess is that the first time it gets hot, you're still curing some paint that never cured - esp. on the stovepipe. And even beyond that, you'll likely also burn off dust that accumulates on parts of the pipe/chimney/stove that normally don't get hot enough. I know in our house there is a distinct smell the first time I fire up the baseboard each year.

(tells you how good we are about dusting...)

-Colin

 

[swestall]

I recall reading in a previous post that one of the folks was having luck using a small fan (take your pick of style) to blow cold air at the stove, and nature did a fine job of moving the hot results around. Give that a try.

 

[JimWalshin845]

As per moving the heat. We tried all sorts of fans and configurations. The smaller pedestal fans are OK but we found the use of a larger fan (27") on low speed was the most effective. One thing I would advise against is having the fan blow directly against the stove. We found it dramatically cooled the cast iron down.

Depending upon our needs is how we direct the fan, but usually we have it pitched about 10-20 degrees and blowing above the stove. This helps mix the cooler air on the floor with the very warm air above the stove.

Good luck,
Jim

 

[Heat Miser]

One thing I would advise against is having the fan blow directly against the stove. We found it dramatically cooled the cast iron down.

Looks like I re-discovered this piece of wisdom last night. I had a larger fan pointed right at the stove. The hot air coming off was great, but 30 minutes later I lost 200 degrees on the stove temperature and diving fast! So I scratched that idea. I'll try pointing it above the stove as you suggest and move the cold air up from the ground.

I also may try to re-direct some air up the back heat shield of the stove. It's cool enough behind the stove that a blower there doesn't concern me. I just need to be sure that I don't force air into the intake vents. That would change my stove into a blast furnace. Is this a good or bad idea (I'm leaning towards bad)? I saw in another thread people recommending the Heat-N-Glo blower fan. Is this a good option to place behind my stove and direct upward behind the heat shield?

 

[JimWalshin845]

One thing I would advise against is having the fan blow directly against the stove. We found it dramatically cooled the cast iron down.

Looks like I re-discovered this piece of wisdom last night. I had a larger fan pointed right at the stove. The hot air coming off was great, but 30 minutes later I lost 200 degrees on the stove temperature and diving fast! So I scratched that idea. I'll try pointing it above the stove as you suggest and move the cold air up from the ground.

I also may try to re-direct some air up the back heat shield of the stove. It's cool enough behind the stove that a blower there doesn't concern me. I just need to be sure that I don't force air into the intake vents. That would change my stove into a blast furnace. Is this a good or bad idea (I'm leaning towards bad)? I saw in another thread people recommending the Heat-N-Glo blower fan. Is this a good option to place behind my stove and direct upward behind the heat shield?

We are envious that you have the VC Defiant cat version but we have been very happy with a circa 1975 version. We too are heating a large area of a two story home and the first floor is about 2500sf.

As per your questions as per moving the air, I don't know if you have a full masonry backdrop to the stove, but if the rear heat shield was an option then I would remove it as long as you feel it is a safe option. The heat shield will only retard heating the brick behind the stove which is a great way to store and distribute heat. I would not put a fan behind or under the stove, we found it just didn't work and we got the most warmth from keeping the stove exterior as warm as possible and moving the air above it throughout the rest of the house.

Unless your home is warm, you will not want to feel the breeze the fan creates so avoid pointing it in those directions.

Sometimes we point the fan directly at the ceiling, this we find will move the heat uni-formally around the living room where the stove is, sort off a reverse ceiling fan. Once that room is comfy we point it towards the adjoining room archway to start heating up the rest of the first floor.

If the house is really cold, we do turn up the thermostat for a bit, then turn it way down to let the stove keep the ambient temperature we desire. We see so many posts here where people complain that their stoves won't heat their home. They forget that not only are you heating the air but also the entire contents. Usually, once you get the home warm it will stay that way as long as the stove is complimenting it.

When it really starts getting cold (teens and below) and the main areas are warm, we use another smaller pedestal fan located in a back hall area to move that cold air up towards the living room creating a slow circular movement of the air throughout the first floor.

It took us a lot of trial and error but this works well for us.

As per cost, we already owned the fans but I would go out and purchase a similar one or replace the one we have if it died. If we have the large fan on for 16 hours a day on the HI setting (like sitting in a 45MPH wind and again this is a larger commercial type use fan), we calculated it would cost us about 75 cents a day for electricity. Since we are using it on the LOW setting we figure less than 25 cents a day and it makes us very comfy.

Life is cozy and grand,
Jim & Kathy