Profile 20, smoking like crazy (but only at startup...)

[MrBeetleman]

I have a profile 20 that has been cleaned and has a new door gasket.
When I started it I get a slight smoke smell, but yesterday when the ignitor was causing the pellets to smolder, the smoke was POURING out of the stove and filled theroom. The stove seemed the light very slowly that time, with a big POOF when it finally lit.
From these symptoms, does it sound like the intake is blocked, or the exhaust side? I just finished cleaning the exhaust side of the stove, but haven't done the chimney yet. Perhaps an obstructed chimney would reduce airflow at startup enough to cause this?
I cannot use it until this gets solved. My wife doesn't like her furniture smelling so smokey...

 

[krooser]

Something is blocking the exhaust... a plugged stove will usually act like this... I know mine did earlier in January.

 

[smwilliamson]

Stove and exhaust venting are a SYSTEM. Clean out the SYSTEM completely and your stove should start up fine.

 

[dmathieu]

Hi Mrbeetleman,

I am having the same issue, and I was wondering if you figured it out.

I think it might be a failing ignitor because the stove takes a very long time to light and the pellets are overflowing by the time it does light. Once lit it works perfectly and it also works fine if I manually light it.

Thanks for any info you can provide.
Dave

 

[smwilliamson]

The igniter has zones...about 6the on the Whitfield...usually the igniter will still work with two burnt out but not usually with 3. Pull it out and bench test it.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

In addition to what Scott is telling you if the area around the igniter has ash in it the airflow is being blocked, the igniter does not light by contact it is the superheated air flow into the burn pot that lights the pellets.

Likewise if the exhaust system is compromised by ash the air flow will be reduced causing delayed (sometimes explosive) ignition or no ignition at all.

 

[MrBeetleman]

I just followed the directions on this site, and cleaned the stove (very well), and replaced the door gasket. By the way though, I also had a failed ignitor, and was starting it manually at the time.

 

[jmduffy]

I too have a Profile 20 stove. Actually I have two of them. One purchased in the 2000/2001 time frame and the second purchased in 2006. The manufacturer has stopped making these stoves including the Profile 30.
I've had lots of experience dealing with smoking issues with both of these stoves. Which over time has cost me a lot of money in diagnosis and labor.
Before I get started I want to share some rules of thumb with these Profile stoves.

Rule 1: A weekly cleaning of the stove will help in overall long term operation. This means (when the stove is cold) emptying the ash bin, cleaning and vacuuming out the burn chamber. Remove the burn pot and vacuum the igniter. Vacuum the heat exchange tubes and slide the rod just under the lid on the pellet bin. Sliding this rod scrapes ash material built up on the heat exchange tubes. Pull any stove pipe caps and vacuum out any ash or dust there as well. Tap the stove pipe to loosen any caked up burn material. Make sure no dust, burnt ash or room dust, is collecting near the back of the stove. Vacuum out all this as well. The reduction of this dust will help to ensure long life on moving parts such as the combustion fan and auger.

Rule #2: This really depends on how often you run the stove. If you are running around the clock, what I'm about to suggest could be done weekly or bi-weekly. I do a full cleaning once a month. As part of the cleaning mentioned above, once a month I would include these additional steps. Pull the stove off the quick insert in the house and vacuum out the wall thimble (vent tube between the room and outside vent pipe). Next unplug your stove. Disconnect the six nuts that hold the exhaust fan motor in place (not the housing). Remove the exhaust fan motor. Vacuum the exposed exhaust fan but DO NOT damage any of the fan blades. After vacuuming ensure the fan turns effortlessly without any stopping. This can be done by spinning the fan gently and ensure the fan spins cleanly. Ok next and very important step. In the burn chamber remove the decorative brick face from the back part of the burn area. This can be done by removing the brackets from each side of the brick face. PLEASE be gentle with the brick face. It is light like styrofoam and its it very brittle. Once the brick face is removed you will see the metal housing that the brick face was mounted against. From the Exhaust fan, take your vacuum (hopefully a thin vacuum tube) and vacuum down the tube inside the exhaust fan all the way to the burn chamber wall. While doing this, take a set of channel locks, small hammer or butt end of a screwdriver and moderately tap the back of the burn chamber wall (where the brick face was mounted) to dislodge any ash that may have accumulated behind the chamber wall. Do this while the vacuum is there so anything loosened gets captured in the vacuum.

You see, the air flow in the P20 heats the exchange tubes and then drops down behind the burn chamber wall before exiting through the exhaust fan. This area is very thin and small. I'm guessing it was designed this way to allow the Fasco exhaust fan to provide the proper negative pressure in the burn chamber to help with combustion and good air flow. This area, depending on the quality of your pellets and how much non-combustable material is inherent in your pellets, gets clogged very quickly and requires frequent cleaning. Again, it is all predicated on quality of pellets and frequency and duration of operation. I have a technician who has created a set up where he uses rubber surgical tubing attaches to his vacuum and he can get up into this cavity behind the exhaust fan and clean is as though it was brand new. He also uses a cemera to look up inside and make sure everything is clean.

When finished, remount the exhaust fan and please be careful with the gasket. Damage to the gasket will result in smoke coming into the living space. Reconnect all connectors including the pressure tubes. Replace the brick face to the back of the burn chamber and that completes the cleaning.

Rule #3: I did not realize how important this step was until I actually tried it. Previous contributors to this forum have mentioned how important it is to get proper air flow during start up. The stove is designed to deliver this air flow by supplying positive pressure into the burn area via the combustion fan and negative pressure with the exhaust fan. These fans both pull around 75 - 115 volts during operation. Also these fans should read 75 Ohms when not in operation. If you are outside these ranges either the motor is seen better days and needs to be replaced or the control panel is not delivering the proper voltage.

But more importantly a proper seal must be maintained in the burn chamber. This involves two things. The door seal and (as I found out) the ash slide. The door seal can be checked by placing a piece of paper between the door and the stove. Close the door and see if you can move the paper. It the paper moves then you have a bad thermal seal and it probably should be replaced. Repeat this test all around the outside edge of your door seal. Now, the door can be adjusted but if the door handle requires some pressure to close the door then it is probable not the door itself.

The ash slide can also contribute to not forming a proper seal. To test this, when the stove door is open and not in operation. With the ash slide closed, press down on the two openings on either side of the Burn pot. If you can move these or create a gap by pressing down then this slide needs to be tightened. There are brackets under the stove that allow you to do this. If the slide drawer is difficult to open then you have tightened it enough. You need to pull out the ash pan to tighten this on the P20.
I find that by doing these things help to ensure a tight seal.

After doing all these things, close up the stove, reattach it to the vent pipe and make sure everything is sealed properly. Start the P20. I find that between one minute and 30 seconds and two minutes and 45 seconds a flame about finger length should be visible. The P20 will feed pellets for a minute and 50 seconds. Then it calls for the igniter. If you have proper air flow the flame should ignite. If not the control board will tell the auger to feed more pellets. Provided you have a properly functioning control board... I will post later.

 

[jmduffy]

Ok I ran out of room in the previous post. So my saga continues.

From my previous post, after two minutes and 30 seconds if you don't see a flame and the smoke is getting heavy (which will eventually ignite after four minutes and 30 seconds, you either have a seal problem or a clogged air flow. Ensure your vent pipe has been cleaned and free of any obstructions. My pipe is 20 feet with one 90 and two 45 bends in it. Its very important to keep the pipe clean.

Ok, lets talk about the control board. As I mentioned in my previous post I own two P20's. One was purchased in 2001 and the second in 2006. Inspection of the stove itself you can clearly see where the manufacturer made some design adjustments. For example each P20 has a damper adjustment on the right hand side of the stove. In the 2001 model it is buried behind the right hand panel. This means you have to remove the panel to get to it which also means opening the burn chamber door to remove the panel. This is a pain if you do this during normal operation. In the 2006 model an opening was created in the right side panel so the owner could make damper adjustments while in full operation without having to open the front door or remove a panel. Problem is you need to unscrew that damper rod in order to remove the right side panel.

The 2001 model uses an electronic Eye to detect a flame during start up and flame height during normal operation. The 2006 model got away from this and uses sensors and switches in place of the electronic eye.

The 2001 model has a control board with no version number listed next to the name Profile 20 on the back of the panel. The 2006 version has a version number. Next to the name Profile 20 there is a V1.13. I called the manufacturer and learned that if you have a newer model P20 with an older control board you can have voltage problems with the exhaust fan. The older board (without a version number) does not deliver enough voltage to the exhaust fan and it spins VERY SLOW at start up. This causes over smoking in the burn chamber and eventually this smoke leaks out and is captured by the convection fan and dumps into the living space.
So if you have a newer (Circa 2005/2006) P20 and the control board does not have the version number on the back, you may want to look at getting a newer board. I complained to the manufacturer and they sent me a new control board. Since then I have had no problems with the second stove.

The first stove which was purchased in 2001 has the older control board and electronic eye. Word of note... Taking the new control board with V1.13 on the back and putting it in the P20 with the electronic eye will create improper operation at start up and I don't recommend it. So make sure you have the proper control board in your stove. Either the manufacturer or dealer screwed up mine which is another story that I will not get into here...

Additionally, Whitfield or Lennox started sending out power cords that have a built in surge protector. This is for when power is lost. I received mine without even asking. If you do not have one or cannot purchase a power cord with a built in surge protector I would go to a computer supply store or appliance store and purchase one. Surges can destroy the control board. And since this product is not being manufactured anymore, eventually parts will become less available.

Ok that's my story on the P20 without getting into any of the drama between the retailer and manufacturer.
I hope this helps folks in this forum.


Oh last thing... I have been searching exhaustively on the internet for hints tricks and help with this P20 stove. In my search I happened to come across the 2001 version of the P20/P30 service manual. I have it in PDF format. If anyone would like me to send them a copy, I'd be happy to. Send me a response through this forum.

 

[Cliff]

Ok I ran out of room in the previous post. So my saga continues.

From my previous post, after two minutes and 30 seconds if you don't see a flame and the smoke is getting heavy (which will eventually ignite after four minutes and 30 seconds, you either have a seal problem or a clogged air flow. Ensure your vent pipe has been cleaned and free of any obstructions. My pipe is 20 feet with one 90 and two 45 bends in it. Its very important to keep the pipe clean.

Ok, lets talk about the control board. As I mentioned in my previous post I own two P20's. One was purchased in 2001 and the second in 2006. Inspection of the stove itself you can clearly see where the manufacturer made some design adjustments. For example each P20 has a damper adjustment on the right hand side of the stove. In the 2001 model it is buried behind the right hand panel. This means you have to remove the panel to get to it which also means opening the burn chamber door to remove the panel. This is a pain if you do this during normal operation. In the 2006 model an opening was created in the right side panel so the owner could make damper adjustments while in full operation without having to open the front door or remove a panel. Problem is you need to unscrew that damper rod in order to remove the right side panel.

The 2001 model uses an electronic Eye to detect a flame during start up and flame height during normal operation. The 2006 model got away from this and uses sensors and switches in place of the electronic eye.

The 2001 model has a control board with no version number listed next to the name Profile 20 on the back of the panel. The 2006 version has a version number. Next to the name Profile 20 there is a V1.13. I called the manufacturer and learned that if you have a newer model P20 with an older control board you can have voltage problems with the exhaust fan. The older board (without a version number) does not deliver enough voltage to the exhaust fan and it spins VERY SLOW at start up. This causes over smoking in the burn chamber and eventually this smoke leaks out and is captured by the convection fan and dumps into the living space.
So if you have a newer (Circa 2005/2006) P20 and the control board does not have the version number on the back, you may want to look at getting a newer board. I complained to the manufacturer and they sent me a new control board. Since then I have had no problems with the second stove.

The first stove which was purchased in 2001 has the older control board and electronic eye. Word of note... Taking the new control board with V1.13 on the back and putting it in the P20 with the electronic eye will create improper operation at start up and I don't recommend it. So make sure you have the proper control board in your stove. Either the manufacturer or dealer screwed up mine which is another story that I will not get into here...

Additionally, Whitfield or Lennox started sending out power cords that have a built in surge protector. This is for when power is lost. I received mine without even asking. If you do not have one or cannot purchase a power cord with a built in surge protector I would go to a computer supply store or appliance store and purchase one. Surges can destroy the control board. And since this product is not being manufactured anymore, eventually parts will become less available.

Ok that's my story on the P20 without getting into any of the drama between the retailer and manufacturer.
I hope this helps folks in this forum.


Oh last thing... I have been searching exhaustively on the internet for hints tricks and help with this P20 stove. In my search I happened to come across the 2001 version of the P20/P30 service manual. I have it in PDF format. If anyone would like me to send them a copy, I'd be happy to. Send me a response through this forum.

 

[Cliff]

Hello,

I read your post about the P20 and i have never seen such an informative post, in my life. I enjoyed your narrative about the board, because every since i have had my 20 it has dumped a ton of pellets in on startup.

I thought it was just a quirky thing, but it might be a control board issue. I just found the 2 chambers in behind the firewall last year. It was driving me crazy for the longest time because i had a lazy flame and constant filling of the fire pot. My wife said it was just me, but i knew that it should burn better and when i found those air chambers, they were filled with ash. That cured my lazy flame issue, but i wonder about the control board now.

I am currently looking for another profile for my garage

I would love that service PDF file, and any other tips you might have came across, i never thought of checking those ash sliders but i will Now!!.

Thx Again
Cliff
[email protected]

 

[Don2222]

Hi Mrbeetleman,

I am having the same issue, and I was wondering if you figured it out.

I think it might be a failing ignitor because the stove takes a very long time to light and the pellets are overflowing by the time it does light. Once lit it works perfectly and it also works fine if I manually light it.

Thanks for any info you can provide.
Dave

Also make sure the burn pot is seated in properly or any ashes blocking the ignitor. If the hot air from the ignitor cannot get into the burn pot, then your problem will occur!

 

[Don2222]

The 2001 model has a control board with no version number listed next to the name Profile 20 on the back of the panel. The 2006 version has a version number. Next to the name Profile 20 there is a V1.13. I called the manufacturer and learned that if you have a newer model P20 with an older control board you can have voltage problems with the exhaust fan. The older board (without a version number) does not deliver enough voltage to the exhaust fan and it spins VERY SLOW at start up. This causes over smoking in the burn chamber and eventually this smoke leaks out and is captured by the convection fan and dumps into the living space..

The slow exhaust fan at start up has now been officially identified by members of this forum in many different brands of wood pellet stoves! It is in the programming of the control board burned into the chip. Newer control panels have the bug fix we now call CSS - Cold Start Syndrome.
The older Pelpro control boards and the older Quadrafire's control box also have this problem. The slow exhaust fan speed also does not provide enough vacuum to hold in the vacuum switch to keep the auger running when these stoves have been started on a low heat setting. The only solution is to upgrade the control panel!

 

[DexterDay]

Rule #3: I did not realize how important this step was until I actually tried it. Previous contributors to this forum have mentioned how important it is to get proper air flow during start up. The stove is designed to deliver this air flow by supplying positive pressure into the burn area via the combustion fan and negative pressure with the exhaust fan. These fans both pull around 75 - 115 volts during operation. Also these fans should read 75 Ohms when not in operation. If you are outside these ranges either the motor is seen better days and needs to be replaced or the control panel is not delivering the proper voltage.

These pellets stoves only have one blower for combustion (exhaust) and one for convection (room air).

There was Positive pressure stoves (not these) and most new stoves are negative pressure. They have a motor/blower that pushes air out of the exhaust vent (under positive pressure) which makes the firebox negative pressure. This pulls air throughout the entire stove.

There is one new stove on the market that utilizes 2 blowers for combustion. The Enerzone Euromax (Drolet-Eco 65) has a combustion blower (before pot) and a exhaust blower (after pot). But the Profiles only had 1 combustion blower. The statement above does not seem to be correct.

Just in case someone goes looking for a motor thats not there. They have a blower/motor for room air, a blower/motor for exhaust, and a motor for the auger. (Old post, but info should be correct).