Progress Hybrid a work in progress?

[wood4free]

Since I have reserved a Progress for delivery later this year I follow all threads on the stove to see how it is working for owners. Maybe I am being a bit overly critical, but it seem to me, Woodstock should have invested a bit more time in engineering the stove prior to it being sold. I am concerned about problems with slow burns. Woodstock's answer is to engage the cat as soon as possible and turn down the control to near zero but now there are reports of the cat potentially stalling out. The low burn problem sounds like something that can be fixed through engineering and I would expect most likely will be fixed in time. The screen around the cat also seems like a problem as we now hear how difficult it is to get back into place. Hopefully, Wood stock will come up with a fix there, too. I guess Woodstock wanted to get the stove into people's homes as quickly as possible to see how it performs which is why they are offering the low introductory price. Then will make adjustments along the way. The question is was the Progress rushed to market too soon and would a little more time in engineering and development solved these problems? As a side not what would owners most like to see improved with the stove?

 

[Nater]

I haven't had much experience with mine yet, but I would have liked a cat probe thermometer on the top or front of the stove. There is a spot for one in the back of the stove, but my stove is installed in a fireplace so the back is inaccessible. It has been mild this week so I haven't been able to stretch it's legs, but so far it has heated my home easily.

 

[Woodrow]

Sounds like Woodstock has great design engineers, as the Progress is a very impressive and beautiful stove. But it appears their T&E department needs to be given more priority and time to vet the new designs before releasing to the public. International Harvester lost a big chunk of its construction equipment business in the late 1940's into the 50's for this very reason. They gave the marketing/sales guys too much power, and they rushed what could have been an advanced/superior product (the TD24 bulldozer) out the door too soon. Result: huge warranty claims and a black eye in reliability/quality reputation they never fuilly recovered from.

Not suggesting the Progress is in the same ballpark as the IHC TD24 at all, but food for thought.

 

[Todd]

I'm thinking this stove works as advertised and is more of a non cat stove with a cat back up to help clean up emissions at lower burn rates. I don't think they ever designed it to run as a true cat stove would with the low smoulder burn. I'd like to see a t-stat switch where you could switch it back and forth between cat and non cat or both no matter what stage of the burn the stove is in. It would be nice to have the ultimate control and burn it hot til you warm up the house where you want then shut her down to a low cat burn to maintain.

 

[begreen]

The first year for most stoves is a shakedown cruise, even from the best manufacturers. It's why some are reluctant to recommend a brand new model until a season or two of use in real world homes has been reported. Woodstock has done a good job so far of tracking issues and providing solutions. And they are selling the first stoves at a good discount. That's a pretty nice policy.

 

[wood4free]

I'm thinking this stove works as advertised and is more of a non cat stove with a cat back up to help clean up emissions at lower burn rates. I don't think they ever designed it to run as a true cat stove would with the low smoulder burn. I'd like to see a t-stat switch where you could switch it back and forth between cat and non cat or both no matter what stage of the burn the stove is in. It would be nice to have the ultimate control and burn it hot til you warm up the house where you want then shut her down to a low cat burn to maintain.

I think it was Backwoods Savage recently indicated Woodstock was hard at work on a TStat for the Progress. I spoke with a Woodstock rep earlier this week and he indicated any TStat was a long time off if it happened at all. I also mentioned to the rep that they need to make the stove so it can be operated in all cat mode, all secondary mode or combined as it is now. He said that would require a total redesign of the stove. I still hope they eventually get around to designing a TStat for the stove.

 

[binko]

All of that makes sense. They can do some modifications like modifying the door gasket or perhaps using a less fine pitch mesh for the inconel screen but more substantial changes require new castings or re-testing and re-certifying.
That seems unlikely.

 

[fireview2788]

Everything new has kinks to workout, even the Corvette wasn't perfect when it was introduced but look at it now. How Woodstock handles any issues, real or perceived, will dictate how it works out. From my experience, Woodstock will handle it perfectly and Progress owners will be singing the praises for seasons to come.

fv

 

[n3pro]

IMO it's no different then any first generation product. That's the risk you take with first generation. I don't see any big problems and Woodstock has been diligently working with owners so IMO everything is great.

 

[certified106]

I don't think the few issues popping up are a big deal at all......Most of the time when you buy a product immediately after it hits the market you can expect minor issues to arise. Even with the advent of great 3D modeling software it can be difficult to get all your boundary conditions correct for the perfect simulation of the proper stress and strain relationships of materials. I wouldn't be surprised if other minor issues show up a few years down the road also that require slight tweaks to the design. The important part is Woodstock is getting the vital feedback they need to to make those tweeks.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Was this stove rushed out? I don't think so. It was in R&D for a long, long time. Also, problems were expected as they always are with a new product but as one of the fine folks up there said, "So far the problems have just been those little nagging ones and most can be taken care of quickly. We'll still keep on improving."

One more tidbit for new things. Some may get held up a bit as one of their good people had a heart attack last week. Fortunately, he is out of the hospital and doing pretty good. However, I'd expect that to slow a few new developments a bit....but it won't stop them. I also don't buy it that this stove is a non-cat with just the cat for clean-up. It is still a hybrid stove and yes, there are a few problems but those problems are being taken care of.

 

[HotCoals]

Not for nothing it is a little strange to me to combine the two.
To me I was under the impression that a tube burner was to create a clean hot burn even cleaner because of the secondaries...not so much meant to be a slow clean burner like a cat stove.
That said if I could take the tubes out of commission on a whim to do a long shoulder season burn off the cat..I'm in.
Then when I really want to heat things up , let me fire the burners up!
I know..I know..would not work for the avg burner...to many broomsticks and valves.

 

[rdust]

I think the stove is working pretty good, I haven't seen any posts that would discourage me buying one if I was in the market for a non cat stove. I personally think it should have been designed to close the secondary air when you engaged the cat, I think some people would be happier. I think Todd has it right with his post above.

I personally try not to buy anything in it's first model run, cars, dirt bike, snowmobiles etc, a stove is no different.

 

[Mike T]

Since I have reserved a Progress for delivery later this year I follow all threads on the stove to see how it is working for owners. Maybe I am being a bit overly critical, but it seem to me, Woodstock should have invested a bit more time in engineering the stove prior to it being sold. I am concerned about problems with slow burns. Woodstock's answer is to engage the cat as soon as possible and turn down the control to near zero but now there are reports of the cat potentially stalling out. The low burn problem sounds like something that can be fixed through engineering and I would expect most likely will be fixed in time. The screen around the cat also seems like a problem as we now hear how difficult it is to get back into place. Hopefully, Wood stock will come up with a fix there, too. I guess Woodstock wanted to get the stove into people's homes as quickly as possible to see how it performs which is why they are offering the low introductory price. Then will make adjustments along the way. The question is was the Progress rushed to market too soon and would a little more time in engineering and development solved these problems? As a side not what would owners most like to see improved with the stove?

I have not had any of these problems. My stove cruises along at 500+ degrees and I can damp it down to easily get 8 hour burns with hot coals remaining. I do turn on the cat as soon as the stove temp is out of the black on the thermostat Woodstock provided. No stalls.

I did recently notice that the stove was spilling some smoke when loading, so I removed and cleaned the screens. Cleaned the cat too...took about 15 minutes total, including getting a vacuum out. I do think Woodstock would be better served with a better maintenance manual, even if it was online.

It warms up pretty fast and it is a strong heater. It replaced a Hearthstone Heritage and is a much better stove for my purposes. It heated the great room and side rooms where it is to 70 when is was negative 10 outside...something the Heritage could never have done. The Heritage was rated for 1900 Sq ft and the Progress for 2000. Either Hearthstone was extremely optimistic of this stove really cranks out better that advertised....maybe both. It is easily heating 2,000 sq ft.

I would recommend this stove and wish they make a stove that I could really put inside a fireplace opening.

 

[rdust]

I have not had any of these problems. My stove cruises along at 500+ degrees and I can damp it down to easily get 8 hour burns with hot coals remaining. I do turn on the cat as soon as the stove temp is out of the black on the thermostat Woodstock provided. No stalls.

Turned down and only burning 8 hours is not what people are looking for out of a firebox the size of the Progress. People are looking for slow/low burn times similar to the BK Princess on low burn which is easily 24 hours in the shoulder season.

Edit: maybe not 24 hour burns in the shoulder season but lets say 18 hours, we can't have more than 1 stove manufacture at a time using alien technology! :lol:

 

[Mike T]

I said easily get 8 hours., didn't say max time. If I loaded it more fully, I can get more and I have.
The 8 hr overnight works best for my schedule so I can reload in the AM but still have a stove well over 350 degrees. If I damped it down more I would expect the time to extend, but that is not what I am looking for as I think I need more heat for the room size with a higher temperature vs a slower burn.
Part of my reason for keeping the damper a bit more open is that a cat is new to me, and I need to learn how the stove operates fully damped. Perhaps I am being cautious, but the setting I have are working for me.
Having said that, I don't think it can do the reported 20+ hour burn times of the Area 54 BlazeKing. It seriously outlasts the burn times of the other stoves I have owned.
It is taking a break for the last few days as the outside temps have risen. Maybe this weekend I will try to see how long the temps last on it after an overnight burn.

 

[begreen]

I have not had any of these problems. My stove cruises along at 500+ degrees and I can damp it down to easily get 8 hour burns with hot coals remaining. I do turn on the cat as soon as the stove temp is out of the black on the thermostat Woodstock provided. No stalls.

Turned down and only burning 8 hours is not what people are looking for out of a firebox the size of the Progress. People are looking for slow/low burn times similar to the BK Princess on low burn which is easily 24 hours in the shoulder season.

Edit: maybe not 24 hour burns in the shoulder season but lets say 18 hours, we can't have more than 1 stove manufacture at a time using alien technology! :lol:

I suspect that's not all folks are looking for in this stove. Many want a fantastic fire view and not a smolder blackened window on a black box to look at. I think the Progress will be picked up by a different market segment than the BK stoves.

 

[rdust]

I suspect that's not all folks are looking for in this stove. Many want a fantastic fire view and not a smolder blackened window on a black box to look at. I think the Progress will be picked up by a different market segment than the BK stoves.

I'm sure this is true to an extent but we've seen some people going from the fireview to the progress. With the fireview they would get a slow, low and clean burn without much of a view of the fire, maybe some floating secondary/wispy type flames without blackened glass. I think those owners had hoped this stove could do the same on low burn.

For me the big feature of this stove that I hoped would work out is a fantastic fire view when wanted/needed and a nice smolder burn when the outside temps didn't demand a high output burn. So far it doesn't sound like they can offer this. It's hard to make any stove perfect(for everyone) but I think this stove is headed in the proper direction.

 

[fire_man]

So far (knock on wood splits) I am 99.99 % satisfied replacing my FV with the Progress, and would definitely do it again knowing what I know now about the Progress. Yes, there are a couple things I would like to see done different, but my guess is those things will happen for those later paying full price for this stove.

This is a great thread, I hope it stays on topic.

 

[Highbeam]

One of two things happened. Either WS went the wrong direction with this stove and meant to make a non-cat stove or they released it too early before they figured out how to get the long/low cat burns to work properly.

The stove, as described by actual users, does not work properly if the smaller fireview can get a longer burntime regardless of output.

It's a nice stove for sure but burn times must be the #1 priority.

 

[Hardrockmaple]

'Tis the age of the consumer being the Beta tester. :coolgrin:

 

[WarmInIowa]

One of two things happened. Either WS went the wrong direction with this stove and meant to make a non-cat stove or they released it too early before they figured out how to get the long/low cat burns to work properly.

The stove, as described by actual users, does not work properly if the smaller fireview can get a longer burntime regardless of output.

It's a nice stove for sure but burn times must be the #1 priority.

I don't get the same idea reading the threads from users. There are several threads showing the stove will burn nice and reload easy after 12+ hours. That sounds like a woodstove cranking out some serious heat and only requiring loading twice during a day. That's pretty impressive. I think a bigger deal is being made about closing off the air than necessary - if you want less heat, load less wood and crank down the air, no problem. This isn't a BK, nor was that the design intent.

Woodstock has had a steady supply of requests from customers for a larger stove for several years, and this is their answer. In addition to larger, they really stretched the boundry of what people can expect from a wood stove, which is great for the industry and especially for the consumers. They will improve the design, and some day somebody else, maybe another company will copy and or improve it as well, that's progress (pun intended). We will all benefit.

In regards to releasing the stove too early IMHO I don't think so. They were clear that they are offering a discount for a newly released stove. They could have built 3 of these stoves and test run them for three more years in-house without learning as much as they will now in 3 months after getting 100 stoves out the door. My hat's off to Woodstock for listening to their customers and building a larger stove and for making the leap in technology.

I can see by reading the threads from users that they are getting full, and first class, support with any issues they have. It is hard to find companies that provide the level of service WS does. My personal experience with Woodstock and my Fireview is why I was willing to make a purchase of a Progress. Some might think I'm biased because I'm a WS owner already. I'm expressing my satisfaction with a company by spending my hard earned money with them a second time - after they impressed me the first time.

 

[jeff_t]

Plus, there is also the fact that you can send it back if you don't like it. Unparalleled in most consumer products, let alone wood stoves.

 

[Nater]

I loaded mine up about 60% full last night around 5:30pm, got it cruising around 400-450. When I went to bed around 10, it was still around 450. Before I left for work at 5:30am, stove top was still about 225. Can easily get a 12 hour burn. I don't think this stove was designed to perform like a Blaze King. It is a stove that can put out a variable amount of heat depending on how much wood is loaded. If it is mild, I put in a half load of wood, and get reasonable heat for 12 hours. And I'm assuming based on others reports that if I load it up, I can get more heat out of it for those 12 hours. It can probably go more than 12 hours, I am just using that as an example. I don't need longer burn times than 12 hours. If I did, I would get a Blaze King.

Overall, I couldn't be happier with the stove. If I had to do it again, I would buy it without hesitation.

 

[Highbeam]

I loaded mine up about 60% full last night around 5:30pm, got it cruising around 400-450. When I went to bed around 10, it was still around 450. Before I left for work at 5:30am, stove top was still about 225. Can easily get a 12 hour burn. I don't think this stove was designed to perform like a Blaze King. It is a stove that can put out a variable amount of heat depending on how much wood is loaded. If it is mild, I put in a half load of wood, and get reasonable heat for 12 hours. And I'm assuming based on others reports that if I load it up, I can get more heat out of it for those 12 hours. It can probably go more than 12 hours, I am just using that as an example. I don't need longer burn times than 12 hours. If I did, I would get a Blaze King.

Overall, I couldn't be happier with the stove. If I had to do it again, I would buy it without hesitation.

You just described a typical non-cat stove. One with a decent burn time but a non-cat for sure. Many stoves such as the Alderlea T5 can replicate that performance.

If the progress can't do long burn times then what makes it any better than a typical non-cat stove? The PH looks much better than a BK. Not so sure it looks better than a Jotul, PE, or other non-cats that don't require cat maintenance.